Master Company-Wide Messaging Like A Founding PMM
If you’ve worked in product marketing long enough, you’ve probably lived this. You’re in a meeting and two teams in the same company are describing the same product completely differently. Sales is saying one thing, marketing is saying another, and the product team has their own language for it.
Meanwhile leadership keeps asking, “Wait, so how is this different from the other offering again?” And the scary part is everyone thinks they’re aligned.
Messaging problems rarely show up as messaging problems. They show up as slow sales cycles, confused positioning, weak cross-sell, campaigns that don’t convert the way they should, and a website that feels like five companies stitched together into one.
This is about what it actually looks like to fix that. It’s not just about a copy refresh, but the operational foundation that lets an entire company speak the same language.
I could not think of a better person to talk about this with than Kevin Chan. Kevin leads product marketing at Fleetio and he’s built a reputation for getting company-wide messaging alignment to actually stick. Before Fleetio, he did similar work at HIMSS, a global healthcare organisation with a lot of moving parts, a lot of products, and a lot of opinions.
Which is exactly the kind of environment where messaging can turn into a thousand little versions of the truth.
The Art of Messaging Alignment
Kevin’s first move at HIMSS wasn’t writing a messaging doc. It was checking stakeholder readiness.
Who’s been burned before by a “messaging refresh”? Who thinks PMM is here to police words? Who’s quietly thinking, “We tried this already and it went nowhere”? If you don’t understand the history and the trust level, you’ll spend your whole project fighting invisible resistance.
From there, he anchored everything in voice-of-customer insight. Back then, pulling VOC was manual and messy. Today, AI tools can speed up the grunt work, but the principle stays the same. If your messaging isn’t grounded in what customers actually say, you’re building on vibes and internal assumptions.
Bringing the Team Along for the Ride
Alignment doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Kevin talked about running workshops with leadership and subject matter experts to draft the framework together. The goal wasn’t to make everyone happy, but to land on language that worked for the customer and could be repeated internally without people twisting it into their own version.
One of the best takeaways here was this: when people argue about words, they’re often arguing about strategy. Word choice becomes the safe way to debate bigger questions like who we’re for, what we’re prioritising, and what we’re willing to stop saying. If you treat it like a thesaurus problem, you’ll miss the real work.
Practising Iterative Feedback
Once the framework exists, the job isn’t done. Kevin described messaging as a living document, and he meant it. You need feedback loops. You need to watch what’s happening on sales calls, see what’s getting repeated, notice what’s being ignored, and adjust.
The point is consistency over perfection. Messaging gets stronger when it’s used, tested, and refined, not when it’s polished in isolation and launched with a big internal fanfare.
Messaging Critique: Brick
Kevin and I wrapped with a messaging critique of Brick, the device designed to reduce screen time. Their core message is about reclaiming time, which is solid, but Kevin saw an opportunity to go deeper.
There’s a bigger story here about willpower and behavior change. Brick isn’t just a productivity tool. It’s a physical way to remove temptation and create a new routine. Even the phrase “brick your phone” has potential as a habit cue. Think family dinners, walking in the door after work, bedtime, focus blocks. Moments where people want to be present and keep reaching for the screen anyway.
That’s where the brand can shift from “time saver” to “lifestyle change you can actually stick to”.
If you’re trying to fix company-wide messaging, Kevin’s approach is a good blueprint. Start by checking readiness and trust. Ground everything in VOC. Bring stakeholders into the process so they feel ownership, and be ready for word debates that are really strategy debates.
Then keep it alive. Messaging alignment is a practice. The companies that win are the ones that keep tightening the language until it becomes the default, everywhere.
LINKS
Messaging Critique (Brick): https://getbrick.com/
Connect with Kevin:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kchan91/
Connect with Elle:
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[00:00:41] Elle: If you've worked in product marketing long enough, you've probably encountered a scenario like this. You're sitting in a meeting and two teams in the same company are describing the same product completely differently. Sales is saying one thing, marketing is saying another, the product team has their own language for it.
[00:00:57] Meanwhile, leadership keeps asking, "Wait, so how is this different from the other offering again?" And the scary part is everyone thinks they're aligned. Messaging problems rarely show up as messaging problems. They show up as slow sales cycles, confused positioning, weak cross-sell, campaigns that don't convert the way that they should, a website that feels like five companies stitched together into one.
[00:01:23] Today's episode is about what it actually looks like to fix that, and I don't mean just rewriting copy. We're talking about building the operational foundation that allows an entire company to speak the same language. And I could not think of a better person to walk us through this than today's guest, Kevin Chan.
[00:01:41] Kevin has spent years helping organizations operationalize product marketing from the ground up, including messaging and positioning systems inside highly complex organizations. Today, he leads product marketing at Fleetio in this episode, we're diving into one of the most interesting transformation stories from his time [00:02:00] consulting with Hims.
[00:02:01] Yeah, that's that big healthcare giant that most B2B marketers are familiar with. You probably remember them from that big conference that they put on every year. So while working with Hims, Kevin helped turn super scattered product expertise into a shared messaging system that the whole organization could use.
[00:02:18] Kevin, welcome to the show.
[00:02:20] Kevin: Thanks, Al. Happy to be here, uh, alongside so many other PMMs that have walked before me and that I've listened to. So, uh, yeah, happy to be here
[00:02:28] Elle: Awesome. Thanks so much. Okay, I'm really excited to talk about this, uh, 'cause it's something that
[00:02:32] I think a lot of PMMs have encountered before. So we're gonna dive right in. You're currently at Fleetio, and I, I wanna come back to that. We're gonna talk about how this kind of all intersects into your career. But, um, today's case study is about Hims. So give us a quick snapshot for those who may be listening and like, "I've heard of Hims," or, "But I don't know exactly what it is."
[00:02:53] Like, give us some context on that
[00:02:55] Kevin: Yeah. So, uh, HIMSS is a global healthcare organization that's really focused on, um, helping healthcare systems like acute organizations Like, hospitals and their healthcare leaders use information and technology to improve the, uh, patient outcomes of those that, in which they serve. Not to be mistaken, uh, with Hims and Hers, which I understand is like a different sort of pharmaceutical brand that's in the United States.
[00:03:18] Um, so they're very much on the sort of global healthcare side. I think the thing that's unique about them is they, um, have a host of both digital but also educational event and advisory style services that they offer. So again, like a very complex portfolio like you mentioned, Elle. And, uh, like of course, like you mentioned too, I think most people know them from that one big gl- global conference that they do every year as well.
[00:03:40] Elle: Yeah. Like, I feel like every tech marketer has, you know, probably touched a campaign marketing strategy for at a Hims conference. okay. Very cool. Very helpful. Okay, now diving a little bit into the actual case study itself. So for this first segment of our show, we're [00:04:00] gonna talk about when you started at Hims and how you realized that you needed to build this messaging system for the, for the whole company, which is pretty huge and, again, something that I think es- PMMs especially at more complex organizations have encountered.
[00:04:17] So walk me through, like, what was going on when you walked into the situation at Hims?
[00:04:24] Kevin: Yeah. So I joined Hims, um, as sort of like a, full-time director of product marketing, but on a contractual basis. And so I wasn't like a permanent headcount there. They, they had a PMM need that they wanted to fill and, um, I had for-- worked with their CMO at the time, uh, in a former engagement, and so I was sort of brought on board, um, in that capacity I think the interesting thing about PMM at HIMSS when I joined was really the challenge, as we know it today was HIMSS has a lot of credibility.
[00:04:54] I mean, there's a reason that a lot of organizations are going to that global conference is because they want to be associated with sort of the healthcare, uh, technology advisory services sort of umbrella that HIMSS offers to, you know, so many North American institutions. Um, and you know, they have a lot of that credibility, they have a lot of that expertise, and they have a very broad portfolio.
[00:05:14] But I think that sometimes works against an organization like HIMSS where, um, that same portfolio is very fragmented. And so they have a lot of products, you know, they have a lot of service-led offerings, whether that's, uh, you know, a professional development network, accreditations, um, both at the individual and the organizational level, um, maturity model related solutions that align closely to, um, acute patient care outcomes that again, like these hospitals are, are trying to improve upon and also advisory-style work.
[00:05:44] And so if you think about all of that together, like how can an organization or even like a buyer possibly know, hey, you know, how does this all fit together? What does my organization need? what type of prof- professional development do I want to implement across my, my institution to drive, again, you know, better patient [00:06:00] outcomes?
[00:06:00] And so while they could understand that HIMSS was, you know, a very credible organization, I think it was harder to understand like what part of that credibility or what part of that overall portfolio of solutions was right for them. Which ones should they start with? Which ones should they grow into?
[00:06:16] And you know, like what is that sort of, again, like maybe buyer journey even aside from coming to HIMSS in the first place, but then looking at that menu and, and, and trying to make, make it sense for-- make sense for them. And so, stepping into that, HIMSS at the time when I joined, like had no true PMM function.
[00:06:32] There was a product marketer that was there. I think she had her hands tied with just so much of the sort of the campaign work that can really overlap with, PMM competencies in an organization like that. And so as a result of that, those campaigns or any sort of, um, go-to-market tactics that they were working on were very ad hoc.
[00:06:50] And so they were, you know, different each time and, different in terms of the copy that they were using because they didn't really have that sort of foundational messaging structure to, to base it off of. And, you know, we'll, we'll get there in a second. But they also had no, you know, shared ICP or understanding of a persona framework in terms of like, who are we gonna be targeting and not just say, you know, everyone underneath this sort of healthcare umbrella, but like how do we niche down?
[00:07:14] And as a result of that niche down, both the channels that we're using and the copy and, you know, putting it all together. they also, as I mentioned, um, alluded to before, didn't really have any sense of like a cross-sell or bundling strategy too. And so that really also led to like a lot of internal competing narratives where, um, they were sometimes going to market with slices of campaigns that were actually, slightly combative to one another and essentially saying, "Hey, here's like two options."
[00:07:38] And instead of maybe saying, "Here's why you should choose them together," it was sort of a bit more like maybe just, just choose the one that maybe where, um, this one business using it is pushing at the time and with less consideration to the others.
[00:07:50] Elle: What I'm realizing as you're just describing the situation that you walked into is that, like, there's this domino effect of [00:08:00] having, a messaging problem where it starts to infuse. You don't notice it right away, but it starts to infuse into other areas of the company, and ultimately the customer's gonna feel that too, that fragmentation.
[00:08:13] so okay. So you came in, and you know, some of it probably the CMO noticed as well and is the reason why they brought you in. Um, and then obviously things that you picked up as well. So I guess, where did you start? Like, there's a lot that you mentioned here. There's, there's so much that you just described.
[00:08:32] So where did you even get started?
[00:08:35] Kevin: Yeah. So, I think as most consultants are usually being brought on and knowing that your, you know, your time is limited in that organization and you're trying to have an outsized impact, I was really brought in to help just create, more scalable, uh, evergreen kind of like iterative processes and foundations that, um, eventually they could bring in someone full-time in-house to be able to sort of anchor on and, um, create this like, again, like repeatable motion across their portfolio, as it relates to like product marketing and different go-to-market, um, activities.
[00:09:07] or how to have PMM as a function be better plugged into all the existing functions within Hims. And so, um, you know, product organizations, service-led organizations, and then of course like the marketing team in terms of like being able to use all that foundational stuff in the various channels in which they're upkeeping and wanting to improve upon.
[00:09:24] And so, uh, really building up the product marketing discipline from the ground up. for us, we really started?
[00:09:31] really at the sort of core foundations of I think where most PMMs would start, which was around standardizing messaging and positioning, which was a big need for an organization which again, um, had no consistency and sometimes ended up cannibalizing their own products or solutions as a result of that.
[00:09:46] and then obviously like the personas in which each of these messaging and positioning frameworks should be, most applicable to. But I think maybe before we get into like obviously the frameworks and the templates and things like that, I think the bottom line was in order to build a repeatable [00:10:00] process across any of these different areas that a product marketer may own, is really like making sure that there's alignment across, um, leadership, subject matter experts, whether that's, uh, product experts or service-led experts, and marketing and sales around like a shared understanding of, first of all, like how PMM should be leveraged in a very multifaceted, very multi-complex kind of organization.
[00:10:22] And, uh, to do that, I think obviously before you're us- applying templates, you need to understand what those templates should be leveraging information off of. And so the task for me from day one was, you know, let's build a good relationship with all of these internal stakeholders that I mentioned. Let's make sure that we can build some sort of repeatable engine here, but also earn credibility, not just for myself, but for that product marketing function that needs to be able to be stood up and well understood.
[00:10:48] And that starts with voice of customer and not just internal opinion. And so, I think like most people do a listening tour when they start at an organization. I think it's not just listening about, hey, what are the problems in the market, but what's like, what is the relative understanding of product marketing within that organization?
[00:11:03] And so how can you understand first like what type of gap you might need to jump just in terms of getting, you know, those internal folks on board in, in, in full agreement that way?
[00:11:11] Elle: Okay, so you just mentioned a bunch of, I would say like big objectives that you had. which is so- I, I think it's really smart that you put those down thinking about like, okay, here are the like big rocks that I'll need to hand- get ahold of before we actually get started. So once you actually like put those, into action, like what does that look like?
[00:11:31] And I like that you, you talked about like building, um, uh, basically the PMM discipline and making sure that, leadership and stakeholders aligned with that. It kind of sounds like a PMM charter. I don't wanna put too much like words into your mouth.
[00:11:43] But, um, you tell me like what is the, what kind of like actions did you take, you know, as the next step?
[00:11:48] Kevin: Yeah. It, it was, it was a little bit of a, a, a charter, I guess you could call it. I think the, uh, I heard this term the other day and I'm gonna steal it, um, 'cause I just felt, feel like it was really relevant in this, in this sort of case [00:12:00] example. is like really what we wanted to do was come in on day one and say, "Hey, you know, if we're a restaurant and we're just opening up our business and we're sort of doing that soft o- opening, here's like the menu that you can sort of order off of right now," right?
[00:12:11] Like, here's the appetizers, the kind of things that like a product marketing team should be able to support on. Here's maybe your entrees, which are obviously like the things that, you know, PMM can take the lead on. And then, Yeah. you might notice these things that are maybe like, part of A- menu that might be able to come in the future, but understanding that today we're sort of like in this soft opening phase and we wanna kind of serve you, again, like the dishes that, we know that we can serve really well, you know, in, in the beginning of opening up the kitchen and the service and things like that.
[00:12:36] And so, um, for us with that charter, uh, or with that menu, uh, as you, as we would just put it just now, we started with the messaging and positioning side. And one of the reasons why we chose to do that was I think that when, especially like executives or stakeholders who are less familiar what PM-- with what PMM can bring to the table, a lot of the times starting with messaging can be valuable because it can also just be an inter- great internal documentation exercise of essentially putting a plan on a page and getting stakeholders to be able to commit together on that being, um, sort of the right strategy moving forward.
[00:13:10] Because what is a positioning document, if not a strategy well documented?
[00:13:14] Elle: Yeah. A- absolutely. Exactly. Okay. So you started with, basically the messaging and positioning, getting the plan on the page. Like, once you have all of that, you know, buy-in or whatever from executives, then what do you do with that? And, like, and, and I guess, like, before I, before we get into that, I wanna double down on a comment that you made, or I guess maybe more of an observation based on your comment.
[00:13:40] At the start of this, we talked about the whole big picture mission that you have is to create a process, right? A system. And I love how your mind and, like, action plan immediately went to, "I need to get my stakeholders on board [00:14:00] in, defining, like, what the product marketing function even is before we even start with building that system."
[00:14:07] Because the system's not gonna work if they don't have beliefs and aligned on the foundation o- of that system. So I thought that was really good, I guess, course of action. So, once you do that, then, like, I guess, um, and before we jump into, like, what the outcomes actually looked like for you, is there anyw- anything else to the story in terms of, like, you build out the messaging, like what else contributed to this, like, system, this messaging system that you built?
[00:14:35] and then I wanna talk about, or I wanna hear about the results.
[00:14:37] Kevin: Yeah. So I think, um, you know, as we were building out that sort of menu charter, uh, and we decided, hey, you know, messaging and positioning is gonna be where we're gonna start first. before we actually started putting, uh, I started putting pen to paper on sort of like, um, getting to work on that messaging, um, the first action that we actually took was it starts with education.
[00:14:59] And I maybe have alluded to this a little bit in my earlier statement, but, I think what we can sometimes take for granted as product marketers with a familiar, familiar model, such as like a messaging and positioning framework and, you know, there's many of those templates out there, and you can't really go wrong with, with any of them.
[00:15:15] But I think you can kind of look at it and you can immediately understand sort of what the relative value of that looks like. I don't think the same can be always said with, again, like a, an executive stakeholder who has never worked with a product marketing team before or has, you know, maybe, been dismissive in the past of what value a messaging and positioning document can have as a, uh, instead of, you know, trying to get to the heart of it, which is oftentimes like, "Well, this is nice, but like, can you show me it on a webpage?"
[00:15:40] You know what I mean? Like that kind of analogy. And so
[00:15:42] I think, uh, starting with education first, the way that we wanted to approach it was, okay, how can we build something in the way that they can perceive the relative importance of it? Or like, how can we start really at ground zero and assess with these stakeholders, have they ever seen a messaging or positioning document before?
[00:15:59] [00:16:00] And if they have, like, did they buy into it? Or if they didn't, why was that? And so I think that's where the listening tour really came into play. And I think one of the things that I had understood while I was starting to meet with these stakeholders was, um, some of them had obviously seen like a messaging framework before.
[00:16:14] Some of them had, worked with a PMM team before, but some of them haven't as well. And so instead of maybe starting with, um, something that was a bit more on the marketing side, you know, like a little bit maybe too fluffy in terms of like the different categorical components of it. Um, again, working in HIMSS, which is like a very healthcare driven, very technical kind of stakeholder audience in which they serve, in which comprises their sort of employee base as well.
[00:16:38] Um, we ended up choosing, I think a framework that's just rooted in a lot more of the practicality in which they prefer to understand things. And so for that sort of framework, we chose, um, you know, really rooting what, what the messaging should be for each of the products and solutions in sort of like that common pains, gains, and jobs framework.
[00:16:56] So again, like what is the buyer's pains? Like what are they feeling that, provokes them to go find a better way to do what they're, they were currently doing in the past? Um, you know, what are obviously the gains and so what are they trying to, get out of that? And that's obviously not just for the organization, but obviously commonly overlooked is like the individual that's feeling the pain the most pronounced, the one that's going out to find the solution.
[00:17:18] There's an intrinsic motivation for them to be able to do that, right? They wanna seem more competent in their job. They want to get a promotion, whatever that sort of, sort of looks like. And we wanna make sure that we're, we're capturing those gains. And I think that was well understood by our stakeholder group as well because they, you know, care immense.
[00:17:33] These, healthcare professionals, you know, are, um, they take a lot of pride in their work and they want to, you know, they also want to be recognized for that type of work that they are providing. And so, um, gains is a, you know, powerful thing in the healthcare sector at times. And then obviously jobs. And so across a acute organization like a hospital, there's a lot of both technical and non-technical folks that are involved in, patient record keeping, o-overall patient care, tracking outcomes.
[00:17:57] And so how do we make sure that we're capturing all, [00:18:00] all of the very disparate jobs, um, sort of under that roof? And so I think even by educating stakeholders on a framework like that, you can sometimes even see their eyes light up where they're like, "Oh, like this is a great way to categorize something that maybe I have been thinking about or even writing down on a notepad, but I didn't know how to like collect my thoughts in such a way."
[00:18:19] And, uh, that's where I think like, you know, PMMs are, invaluable in our ability to sort of like help categorize across a wide body of folks with different opinions, like what that ultimately looks like. And so, I spent probably like the first two weeks of joining Hims and, you know, breaking down that menu and then figuring out, okay, how do we do that listening tour and open up people's, willingness to be educated about product marketing and messaging?
[00:18:44] And then, um, and then I sort of got to work on, uh, concurrently got to work with, um, also proving my worth. And so, you know, I can ask a lot of questions. I can, hopefully engage people in the right way. But like how do you earn trust, especially as a consultant or a new person joining an organization, that you not only are, you know, great at maybe like listening to them, but show that you can quickly have an understanding of the market, so when you're pr- producing strategic material that they trust the material that you're ultimately creating.
[00:19:13] And so concurrent to that, I conducted a lot of like sort of VOC research upfront, and so wanted to show that I'm not just, hearing from them and then repeating back to them what they just told me in terms of their understanding of the market becoming my understanding of the market.
[00:19:27] And so, um, quickly got to work doing the things that, you know, all of us do. So sitting in on customer calls, pouring over CRM notes on won and lost opportunities and all the different sort of activities progressing across deal stages, reviewing the, all the various sort of like beta documentation or product technical documentation across both, again, the technical and non-technical offerings that they had.
[00:19:50] pulling insights from these very well-established healthcare advisory boards that Hims, um, chaired and often held as part of their sort of portfolio of, of advisory [00:20:00] services. and used all of that to actually create, um, a centralized VOC artifact. And really, um, in order for me to then bring into, um, a part I'm gonna talk about in a second, which is around, uh, like workshopping and sort of showing a, a bit of a myth versus fiction, uh, through that as well.
[00:20:15] Elle: I love all of this, in particular how you prepared the artifacts and I guess anything that you were gonna present to them by assessing that, like what you call the, the willingness to learn or willingness to listen. I think that's something that just when you're in a rush, you've got big objectives, you've a lot on your plate, it's, it can be easy to skip that, part.
[00:20:39] So, uh, I'm very eager to hear kind of like once you did... That's a lot of work, right? It's like sifting through, the VOC work, and sitting down with all the SMEs, and getting their feedback, and getting their, um, perspective on the market. so tell me, I guess, like once you did all of that work, like bring us home to like what the, you know, results might look like and anything else that, that got you there.
[00:21:06] Kevin: Yeah. So, um, after all that VOC work, work was done, actually this is kind of the fun, fun part. And so this is kind of like where you, uh, at this point you feel like you've done the work and now you're ready to prove it. And so, um, for us, typing was good. Um, they had a, uh, were having a onsite based in Chicago with all of their different, uh, senior leaders coming together.
[00:21:27] And so, uh, and as part of that, with actually very little product on my side, and again, this is I think like the importance of getting buy-in upfront. I had actually asked for, um an extra day of that onsite where I could dedicate it to, doing a bit of that messaging and positioning works, workshopping on like together, physically together at that onsite.
[00:21:45] And so we were able to bring together those senior leaders. Um, we, we all met in Chicago and, uh, we, and I conducted, a messaging and positioning workshop. And so bringing it all together, this is sort of where, uh, I was able to, talk about the pains, gains and, and jobs [00:22:00] framework that I had already briefed them all on.
[00:22:01] So they were, you know, they were familiar with it. They sort of knew what to expect through this process, and so you didn't need to do education up front with, and, you know, hope that the 12 people in the room all understand it the same way right away. Like we've done that tr- preparation. We've, we've prepared them in that way.
[00:22:15] And so through that, we, we put up a bunch of actually these, big whiteboards with, you know, like your sort of like breakout of tables with like pains, gains, jobs, like, how does a customer describe it? You know,
[00:22:26] Elle: Yeah. Did you use sticky notes? Please tell me there were sticky notes.
[00:22:29] Kevin: notes. yes. And, uh, and we got to work.
[00:22:34] And so, you know, I think that, um, the senior leaders were all able to share their different viewpoints. Some of them, you know, on more of the technical product side, some of them that were more on the maybe accreditation education side, um, some of them that were more, on the sort of advisory side. And so we got a lot of like different viewpoints, which I think was, um, was really great.
[00:22:52] And once we got those sticky notes all mapped out there, um, that's when I brought out the VOC. And so I didn't wanna immediately come in and say, "Hey, I know-- Again, I know better than you. I had a chance to talk to all of you, and I did my own VOC research, research, and only listen to me." And instead, what I said was, "Let's listen to each other.
[00:23:07] Let's all write these down. Let's see what we agree with and what we may disagree with, and then how do we overlay that VOC that we created now, um, over top?" And so I ran them through the VOC and sort of was able to show them like, again, these are the data points that we got them from. Like, here's how we earn some credibility in the room as PMMs.
[00:23:23] Like here are the sources of the data, but not just are we like arbiters of data. We're not data analysts, but here's what the data means. And so we to- we would take the VOC and, uh, like in a live exercise, sort of map some of that VOC data, over those sticky notes. And so that's essentially, sounds fancy.
[00:23:40] It's just more sticky notes on top of sticky notes and sort of like a VOC sticky note, uh, with obviously like the opinionation kind of sticky note. and you know, I think the good news through it
[00:23:48] all was, thankfully, uh, 'cause I've, I, I have seen this go a bit more awry than this. Um, we found about 70% alignment between sort of like the pains, gains and jobs that the senior leadership perceived them to [00:24:00] be.
[00:24:00] And, you know, obviously what we were seeing in terms of, um, you know, the advisory boards that I was able to sit in on, you know, some of the CRM notes and, um, things like that as well. Um, and where there was actually most of that mismatch, so where that 30% mismatch was, was actually, not in terms of general directionality.
[00:24:15] The directionality actually overlap y- I would say, m- majorly or, or do- dominantly. Where most of the mismatch happened was, um, around like very specific wording and language. And so again, I think that, you know, uh, when you're working on something as important as, as messaging, there's a subjectivity to it, right?
[00:24:32] There's an element of, well, you know, if you, you tend to speak or, or use the phrasing of the people that you spend the most time with, right? And so on the senior leadership side, they are not spending as much time with sort of like our, um, champion or sort of like our in-the-weeds buyer persona.
[00:24:48] They're spending more time with like other fellow executives and, uh, and the partnerships and, uh, relationships they're trying to build, you know, sort of above the power line. And so, where we ended up seeing most of that mismatch and, um, really where, again, using everything as an educational moment, the sort of final l- great point as we sort of departed from that senior leadership onsite was, using this workshop not to just build buy-in to whatever we put on the sticky notes, but again, slowly bringing them along that journey to be able to say, "Hey, like, I think we all learned a little bit more about our audience today, and then let's continue to think about that moving forward as now we start to consult with other groups, through that process as well."
[00:25:27] Elle: Yeah. Bravo. I, it's so hard to get that executive alignment, but what I've noticed throughout your story is that if this big workshop that you were doing was kind of like the big game, right? You were preparing for the big game, like every moment before then. You know what I mean? Like you had, you know, almost like practice shows or y- you know, where you met with some of those stakeholders ahead of time.
[00:25:52] So by the time they saw something in the workshop, it wasn't the first time they had seen it. Like you had kind of like been preparing their like readiness to [00:26:00] accept what you were going to unveil to them in the workshop. Uh, so I just think that was so, I don't know how, how much that w- I think it was pretty intentional the way that you did that, but I thought that was, a really sharp strategy.
[00:26:13] okay. So what I wanna do now is take this case study and turn it into a playbook, and you've kind of given us some pieces of that already. But let's say that I'm a product marketer who is, kind of going through the same thing, where I work at this super complex organization and I have all these different offerings.
[00:26:36] I have services, I have products, I have, you know, subscription models, all, et cetera, et cetera, and no one's speaking the same language. And I am coming to you as my coach. Where do I get started in all of this? What's step one?
[00:26:50] Kevin: step one is assessing stakeholder readiness and, uh, I think, you know, that was pretty clear up front. I think, uh, If you're, sometimes like itchy on the trigger finger or itchy on the action like I am sometimes and you just wanna like jump straight into messaging documents, that sometimes can get you in trouble.
[00:27:05] And so, I think what you really need to do is understand how, an organization currently thinks of what product marketing can bring to the table and messaging obviously sometimes being like a very strong component of, uh, of that. And so the real blocker with step one or even before you move beyond step one is that different teams have different beliefs, right?
[00:27:25] And so, um, does the company understand truly the difference between positioning versus messaging and messaging versus copy maybe most importantly, uh, important than other? and then from there, does sales trust the way that PMM puts together messaging in the first place? Do they understand the process?
[00:27:42] Do they ha- you know, have that implicit trust or do you need to earn it? And so what steps do you need to take to earn it? I think that, um, a useful question to ask when you're joining an organization for the first time is when you're understanding the baseline of the understanding of product marketing or messaging, like what prevented the last, that [00:28:00] last attempt from being successful?
[00:28:01] So that last attempt of building, uh, personas, that last attempt of writing messaging and having it stick, um, through enablement and through marketing channels. Like what, what was the hindrance and, and, and how can you learn from that before you make that same mistake a second time and, um, and maybe erode that trust further without knowing it.
[00:28:18] And so, I know I think first and foremost, you have to educate the people on why what you're working on matters and how it can help that organization make better decisions, uh, downstream of where that work is happening.
[00:28:29] Elle: Yeah. I love step one because it's all about earning trust, and that is going to be the biggest hurdle, especially if you're somewhere where trust has been broken. I worked at an organization that I was, like, the third PMM leader to come in, and it was just, like, so hard to get all of the stakeholders to trust product marketing again.
[00:28:56] It took a long time. It took, like, uh, almost six months before I finally got everyone... And, I mean, we're talking a massive organization. So, so I appreciate the, like, some of the, um, tips that you give on how do you assess that and, you know, maybe how you start to earn trust. So okay, step one is assessing stakeholder readiness.
[00:29:23] So what is step two?
[00:29:26] Kevin: Step two is that doing the voice of the customer work. And so, again, once you understand that organization's readiness, uh, now you need to ground the work in evidence. And so that's where, earning your seat, especially as a consultant or a newbie, is this is where, this is where that gets done. And so otherwise, you know, whatever you're working on, messaging in this example can become a debate about internal opinions as, uh, as opposed to, um, you know, here's like, yes, there's a art to writing messaging, but there's also a science to it.
[00:29:53] And so here's the science. VOC gives you that shared source of truth. And in Him's example, um, admittedly the data setup [00:30:00] was not perfect compared to, I think the way we can, uh, use AI and a lot of the new ways that we can collect that voice of customer tooling. But back then that wasn't present, but we had something and that was better than nothing to earn that trust.
[00:30:11] it was enough to identify the patterns and keep going
[00:30:14] Elle: Yeah. Yes. Okay, I love that you mentioned AI, and I wanna come back. So I'm gonna-- we're gonna get into a couple other, like, side topics before we move on in the playbook. So earlier on in our conversation, you mentioned that oftentimes stakeholders can confuse messaging with copywriting, and that is so true.
[00:30:34] I cannot tell you how many messaging strategy meetings I've been in where, like, every word was picked apart. And there are times when you should pick apart language. There, there absolutely are. But sometimes it was just like, "No, no, no, this isn't, like, website copy. Like, that's not what this is." So, um, so I'm glad that you called that out, and then I'm also glad that you called out AI, and I have some questions for you around AI.
[00:30:59] now I remember interviewing somewhere because I had done a lot of-- I was v- I've always been a very strong believer in voice of customer work and talking to customers and synthesizing CRM data with sales calls transcripts, and actually talking to customers. And I remember working, interviewing somewhere once, and they were shocked at how much time I spent doing the VOC work, and they thought, like, "How do you have time for that?"
[00:31:24] With all of the, like-- 'cause PMMs do everything. Like, we do so-- we're responsible for so much. So how do you have time for it? So that's no longer an excuse now. With AI, we can, you know, jump through some, jump over some of those hurdles. So, like, how do you think about, like, AI changing, like, the VOC collection for, like, messaging work and especially, like, how would you compare it to this particular project if you were to, like, kind of like do it again?
[00:31:57] How does AI play a role in that?
[00:31:59] Kevin: Yeah, I [00:32:00] think it, I think it changes things quite drastically. And so, um, when I was at Hims, this was, yeah, maybe closer to five years ago at this point. And so, uh, none of that at least existed, at least to the competency level that it does today. Um, but yeah, it can help a lot on the research and especially on the synthesis side.
[00:32:15] Um, when I was working with Hims, the OC collection was much more manual, and so I'm sure a lot of people can empathize with this, but I was poring over CR- sorry, CRM notes manually. I was, sometimes Command + F-ing to si- find unified keywords and make sure that I'm drawing down that information correctly or sort of distilling it into different categories.
[00:32:33] I was, you know, meeting with, uh, advisory boards for feedback, and I didn't even have a call recorder, so I was writing stuff down on a notepad and, and having internal SME conversations and again, kind of doing the same thing. And so the work was valuable. VOC work is super valuable, but it was slow.
[00:32:48] I think today with AI, it's just so much easier to turn, uh, unstructured customer data into structured customer data, and you can get that from all very various facets of, um, your organization. And so, you know, call transcripts are one way that you can, you know, add that in. Same thing with sales notes, uh, that are in your CRM, customer interviews, support tickets, public reviews, uh, from review sites, things that are on community forums like Reddit.
[00:33:14] and with AI today, you can pretty much just take all of that, put it into like a second brain, and then be able to like query that information or prompt it in any which way to make sure that you are slicing and dicing it as many different strains as you need to, to be able to get that insight.
[00:33:29] And so, the work just moves faster. But the one thing that I will say about AI for data research or synthesis is, if anything, it just makes PMM judgment more important than ever. I think I said at the top again, that PMMs are not data analysts, nor do I think we should think of ourselves as them.
[00:33:46] Instead, you know, the data can come from anywhere, right? Like, I think we're, we can work with really great data teams to get, to get information. We can work with our product teams to better understand maybe the user and how they're different than maybe the research we're doing on the buyer. But ultimately, I [00:34:00] think it's that PMM sense or gut that?
[00:34:03] you can sort of continue to build upon over time to say, "Okay, well, um, it's not just about me being an echo chamber of all the same insights that everybody else knows, but like, what's the strategic insight that I might have as I'm pulling these all together?"
[00:34:16] That's where that strong sense of, I think PMM opinionation comes from. When someone's coming to you as a PMM, they're not-- they don't want your data, they want your opinion, and I think that's really-
[00:34:25] Elle: I am so glad that you said that because one of the, cautions that I have to PMMs who are not skipping the VOC work these days, they're doing it but they're doing it with AI, which is helpful, so helpful. Like we just talked about how helpful that is. But, um, my caution is for, and particularly for junior PMMs who are just kind of starting their product marketing careers and they didn't ha- they didn't, um, you know, experience l- product marketing life without AI like you and I did.
[00:35:02] So they don't, they don't know what it's like to sit there with a pen and notepad to take hand notes, you know, or, um, plug in pages of notes into a spreadsheet and to, you know, sift everything together. Like they don't, they didn't have to do all of that. So but, and it, and it's, there's pr- definitely pros and cons to this, but I think one of the cons, and that's why I call it a caution, and I wanna get your perspective on this.
[00:35:30] I still think product marketers should, if you haven't done it, should put the work in to do it without AI or like with very little AI because you mentioned like that PMM gut, right? That when stakeholders come to you, like they can j- if, if they wanted to, they could just go build an AI model to go do that their- themselves.
[00:35:51] They're not asking you to regurgitate the output of Claude. That's not what they're asking you to do. But to get, build up that like what I [00:36:00] think you said, like that kind of like PMM perspective or, you know, that gut reaction, it's really a confidence. So you have to do the work to get the confidence in yourself and your ability.
[00:36:13] Is that kind of like what you're saying with some of how you explained like the AI kind of world that we're in right now?
[00:36:21] Kevin: Yes, Elle, for sure. And I think that's, that's where, um, you know, one of the things that I think, uh, using, you know, something like Claude or ChatGPT can take away from you is, um, if all you're doing is copy and pasting in a bunch of different transcripts or CRM data or any, you know, mix of data that you can sort of think of, and it's giving you an output and you're taking that output and you-- maybe you're copy and pasting it into something else and then transforming that dataset or, um, sort of information into another format, you're not-- you yourself are not learning anything through that process.
[00:36:52] And so just like, um, writing down something by hand helps commit it to memory, if you're not-- if you yourself are not wading through that data, you are not committing anything to memory, and then that's gonna just hurt you as a PMM leader when you're in a room and you need to have an opinion on something, and, uh, you don't have that, you know, quick ability to, um, you know, prompt that answer, then, um, they are looking for you to have an opinion.
[00:37:13] And if you don't have that opinion, then, maybe worst of all is are you gonna continue to earn that seat at the table that, you know, I think we're all trying to earn
[00:37:21] Elle: Yes. The trust that we need to build, that was step one of this playbook. So I'm so glad you mentioned all of that. I think, um, I agree with that thinking. Okay, so step one was assessing the readiness to kind of learn and ex- um, basically hear you out. Step two, I think, was to do the voice of customer work.
[00:37:43] What is
[00:37:43] step three?
[00:37:44] Kevin: Yeah. So s- step three?
[00:37:46] is, uh, bringing stakeholders along for the ride. So, um, throughout that entire process, there were, um, you know, times where I was maybe, um, having a conversation with a stakeholder, bringing them up to speed. You know, I think no surprises when you're trying to work on something as important as, like, a [00:38:00] positioning or messaging strategy, right?
[00:38:01] And so, you know, again, PMMs can often feel like, hey, you know, I can do all this myself. I know how to do the research. I can build the framework. I can polish the doc, and I can show everybody what it looks like at the end. And, uh, like, maybe, like, hopefully, like, rub my hands off of it and, uh, walk off into the sunset, right?
[00:38:18] That doesn't really work in actuality. And so, um, stakeholders, uh, if they don't understand how you got there, they're more likely to, you know, debate the individual words, uh, maybe dismiss the initial strategy that you're even putting in front of them to begin with. Um, and I knew that at Hims the messaging would only stick if people trusted the process, and so we needed to make sure that we, um, brought them along for the ride, not just at the beginning, but throughout.
[00:38:40] And so the leadership workshop was really about understanding how the leaders saw the business. following up from that, we did similar smaller sessions with, um, s- different subject matter experts in the healthcare space that were employed by Hims and made sure that the language would hold up with those expert buyers in which they more often engaged with at the very peer-to-peer level that they operated in.
[00:39:00] And so at the end of the day, it wasn't sort of me coming in and saying, you know, "I like this messaging, and so you should like it too." It was more like, hey, as an organization, like, let's look at the evidence together. Um, let's, you know, build that trust not just in PMM but with each other, that we all trust the expertise that we're all bringing jointly to the table.
[00:39:19] And especially when you have, you know, again, executives, um, both technical and non-technical SMEs, um, sales and marketing, we all bring different perspectives that are, you know, really important to, to make sure that we all agree on before we move forward.
[00:39:31] Elle: Yeah. And something that I wanna call out that I think kind of connects step, step two with step three is, um, and, and all the more reason why, like, sitting with the data is important. It's helpful for your stakeholders to actually see how you got to the conclusion that you came to, 'cause that's what earns trust.
[00:39:53] And having-- Like, just going into a Google Doc and, like, suddenly seeing it [00:40:00] filled out, like, isn't something that's necessarily going to, like, build that trust. Um, it, it, it actually just reinforces you as an order taker of, like, "You asked for the messaging, here it is." Not that collaborative, "Let me bring you along for how I got to this conclusion so that moving forward we all agree that this process is something that we all wanna follow."
[00:40:24] So I really appreciate that note. Okay. Now what's next? What's step four?
[00:40:29] Kevin: Yeah. I think step four?
[00:40:31] is really about, um, okay, now we've, um, you know, again, taken people along for that ride. And so now we're hopefully, you know, at this point starting to get further and we're starting to draft the messaging itself. And so let's be intentional with that word choice that we end, ultimately end up choosing, for, um, the messaging strategy.
[00:40:47] And this is where I think, you know, if anyone's ever worked on a messaging project before, it can be highly subjective and suddenly before you know it, we're wordsmithing by committee. And so it's like, uh, you know, what about this word instead of this word? Or, you know, like I, um, someone's gonna go and, you know, go on Webster's and look up a synonym for a different word or something like that.
[00:41:07] And, um, the way out of that is you need to ground the word choice in the VOC and in the alignment that you're, that you're putting together. know, not every word needs to come directly from a customer quote, but important language should be explained through customer evidence. Um, you know, I think that at Hims this mattered a lot because again, we were dealing with a very complex healthcare environment and so, we wanna make sure that we can speak really, truly speak the language of our buyers.
[00:41:32] And so we had to be very deliberate about word choices, what words to also avoid and like what terms, um, specifically meant. And so as part of the messaging framework that we ended up putting together, we actually had very clear excerpts where if we were being very particular about a word choice, we would call out why we need to be particular about that.
[00:41:49] And like, you know, if you were to swap maybe these three words, that might be okay, but this fourth word, don't swap it. Here's why. Here's a spec- specific reason. And so, that's where we [00:42:00] need to be clear where we're getting that from. Is that VOC? Is that other stakeholders, you know? And at the end of the day, as much as I always preach alignment, sometimes there's also something that I like to call, which is like disagree and commit.
[00:42:11] And I think that's where as PMMs we can, should be able to say, "Hey, here's the objective facts, facts on the table. I know that, you know, you as a product person or you as a salesperson said we should use this word instead, but this word, the, this word was chosen intentionally grounded in A, B, C, D, and E. We heard your suggestion.
[00:42:29] Here's why we chose a different direction." And I think that's a very healthy kind of disagree and commit where, um, you know, if you're showing-- if you have the data, that's where again, like your data and your opinionation on those two being the right things can really matter in how you, uh, work with stakeholders.
[00:42:43] 'Cause at the end of the day, not everything's gonna be this like really clean commit and high five and walk away, um, kind of movement.
[00:42:49] Elle: Yeah, I appreciate you kind of highlighting some of the like, you know, sometimes you don't agree and it's a uncomfortable situation to be in, but just kind of relying on the data and the evidence is really helpful way to move forward. Something else that you said that I wanna come back to is we talked a lot about earlier on in the conversation that like don't confuse copywriting with messaging, but here your step four is about be intentional with word choice, right? So I don't wanna confuse listeners. Something else that you said earlier on too, which is related, is that when you were doing these workshops with your stakeholders, executives often had different probably word choice because they were having more peer-to-peer conversations, not like, I don't know, maybe practitioner level conversations.
[00:43:34] And I think that's so important. That's something that happened a lot at some of the lar- larger, more complex organizations that I've worked at, where we had to be-- we had to recognize which persona are we talking about here, because the worst case scenario is when you build messaging that was intended for a peer-to-peer audience of executives, and somehow that's the narrative and that's the messaging that gets used for practitioners.
[00:43:58] It's--
[00:43:59] Kevin: Been
[00:43:59] Elle: [00:44:00] It was a bad outcome, let me tell you. Yeah. Um, so I guess what I'm coming back to is w- earlier when we said like, don't confuse copywriting with messaging is still true, but I think what, and I'm trying to like get clear on your step four here, it's just being clear with word choice of messaging and making sure that it's like the same language that you're speaking to the customer.
[00:44:22] is that, is that accurate to kind of say
[00:44:24] Kevin: Yeah. I-- That-- Yeah, that's correct. And I think where, um, to me, like m-messaging sort of sits compared to copy is, you know, messaging is your strategic truth, right? It's the truth that you wanna be able to tell to the market. And I think obviously like on, with, on the, with, with copy, that's really like where you wanna maybe be able to make it a bit more channel specific, right?
[00:44:43] And that's where, um, you know, there's people that are much better experts than I at copywriting, but I think messaging is like, again, where you need to seek that?
[00:44:50] type of alignment that you mentioned, you know. Uh, is it practitioner to practitioner? Is it executive to executive?
[00:44:55] Elle: Yeah, totally. Um, okay, so bring us home. Like, it, I'm guessing there's a step five, but, uh, and then is there anything else to the story after that?
[00:45:06] Kevin: Yeah. So, um, step five is leaving room for iteration and feedback. And so, my engagement with Hims was actually less than a year. And so, um, just get-- going through this messaging component, took a good, took a good component of my time there. And so at the end of the day, when you're departing, you wanna make sure that you're leaving room for iteration and feedback.
[00:45:25] And so I was able to help, guide or facilitate this through the, um, remainder of the time in which I was there. But ultimately, um, this is another place where PMMs can suddenly, stop too early. And so, you know, you launch the new website or copy, uh, you know, you write that new sales deck based on the messaging structure that you've created, and then you kind of move on to the next project.
[00:45:47] We didn't wanna do that. At Hims, I certainly didn't. And so, um, messaging is only proven once it gets used and, uh, we needed to make sure that when it was used, like, is it being effective? And so at Hims, um, this was really important because [00:46:00] we were introducing messaging again for the first time in an organization, maybe not to the stakeholders, but certainly to the organization.
[00:46:06] And so, um, we did not want to build a culture that if messaging was to be done in the future, it's a one-and-done initiative. And so you need to teach them how to detect signals from places where messaging is supposed to create the type of impact we expect messaging to create. And so is it landing in the sales calls as we're sort of converting that into the pitch deck, right?
[00:46:25] Are we-- you know, is a, a senior leader maybe when they're giving a keynote at like a healthcare convention or, or, or a presentation, is that landing in the right way, you know, out in the audience? And so how can we pick up on some of those maybe like, um, harder to pick up, like more, less tangible cues. And then obviously when it comes to like more quantitative signals, there's where, you know, things like, um, are they spending more time on page?
[00:46:47] You know, are they like reading the copy actually? Um, you know, if we're building white papers and the white papers are, leveraging more of that messaging structure, are we actually maybe getting better download rates because we're hitting on pain points that are true to the folks that are encountering, um, that content moving forward?
[00:47:02] And so, um, really making sure that we're building a culture in which, you know, me- uh, PMMs won't be able to see all the signals as they're coming in live. We rely on so many different stakeholders to feed that feedback back to us. And so, um, what does that?
[00:47:15] look like and how do we let people know that this is just the first step, we're gonna continue to iterate and here's how the iteration process ultimately works.
[00:47:22] Elle: Yeah. I've always heard and even said myself, messaging is a living document. It's always changing and growing. so, I wanna fast-forward now in your career. You're at Fleetio now. What-- How does this playbook show up in Fleetio? And I know you have a ton of...
[00:47:41] We've already talked a ton about AI as well. So help contextualize some of this for us. Like, what does it look like in practice now in a totally different setting, like, no longer this, like, complex healthcare organization?
[00:47:54] Kevin: Yeah. So, um, I think at when it comes to like, well, certainly the VOC collection [00:48:00] days, you know, manually pouring over CRM fields is, is, you know, for the most part, it's, it's over. I think that's again, where like AI does a really great job at turning, uh, unstructured data into structured insights that you could use in a variety of formats and where, you know, like tools like Gong and their, um, AI Studio and other conversational intelligence tools can just dramatically accelerate the sort of analysis that, Elle, to your point, like could take you months, um, back, you know, Back before AI existed and, uh,
[00:48:29] Elle: Back in my day
[00:48:30] Kevin: Yeah.
[00:48:30] Back, yeah. Maybe we're dating ourselves a little bit here, but, um, I, I was trying not to go in that direction, but, and yeah. And I would also even say that like where we used to previously be wholly reliant on very perfect CRM hygiene in terms of like, hey, you know, when we need to understand that the product won for this reason and lost for this reason, like here's all of our pick lists, and the pick list needs to be granular enough.
[00:48:52] Now you can, um, you know, pull that same information from, uh, a Gong transcript with some good detection. You can, you know, um, be able to do the same thing by even taking the unstructured data that is a seller's like won or lost notes or activity notes throughout an opportunity in their CRM and be able to like tell-- better understand that story without, you know, someone spending 15 minutes polishing that type of data.
[00:49:15] And so, that's the one piece that I think has changed the most in that playbook. But then not only how do you take that VOC, but then when you're writing the messaging in, in step five, when I was talking about that iterative feedback loop, that's also where I think, um, you know, the times are changing.
[00:49:28] And so AI's been able to really step in and, and, and add I think a bit more directionality or at least, maybe not causation, but strong correlative ties between I think like what a PMM does and the sort of impact that it might have out there in the field. And so, um, at Fleetio, one thing that we are um, looking at right now is, um, you know, again, if you have that sort of like foundational messaging and again, like enforced by that more scaled sort of way of gathering VOC.
[00:49:57] in your messaging, you can also like be a lot more [00:50:00] specific because you spend less time in the CRM data, you can spend more time in the different slices of what that messaging can ultimately look like. And so for us, um, when we're dealing with a technical buyer, there's obviously a lot of different sales plays in terms of like if they're wanting to use our o- our API or they're wanting to use an integration with us, or they're, you know, looking at any, using any of the sort of data interoperability features that are available, not just in Fleio, but across the board.
[00:50:25] and you know, let's say your seller's not super technical and they shouldn't actually need to know the 100, uh, the, the, the five-foot view. They sh- it's okay for them to primarily just understand the, maybe the 20-foot view. there is some, there is more we can do now with AI around like coaching of proactive beha- like the type of proactive behaviors that we ultimately wanna see.
[00:50:45] And so I think that's where for us, I mentioned when it came to HIMSS, one of the signals that we would look at quant, uh, qualitatively was, you know, like if a, if a rep is using the messaging, how is the, uh, buyer reacting to that messaging? And you might be able to like, you know, pull up a Gong transcript to see that.
[00:51:03] Going one level further now, what you can do is not only how are they reacting to that, but if, if they maybe had a negative reaction to that, is that because there was something wrong with what the seller had said, and how can you coach that immediately? And so that's where I think A- AI through being able to quickly crawl a transcript, understand where that objection was maybe handled incorrectly, and then surfacing the right coaching moment based on here's actually like in the messaging, the type of direction we should have pointed the, to that, them to one layer deeper.
[00:51:31] Um, you can actually have that rep go out, go back out and say, "Hey, um, realized last, last week or yesterday I didn't, um, answer that question you had as, as, you know, as well as I should have. And so here's a way, here's, um, some information that I do wanna leave you with and, uh, and, and you can feel free to ask me any more questions, you know, that you might have."
[00:51:49] And so it allows for that sort of really great, proactivity where you don't need to let that opportunity go all the way to a close before you realize, "Oh, shoot, I messed up that, you know, my talk track there." There's a bit more of that [00:52:00] proactivity of like, "Well, maybe that wasn't so great. Here's how I can fix it."
[00:52:04] And not only does that help that opportunity, but it al- also helps, um, the seller in that moment, you know, be coached that, that little bit better as well.
[00:52:12] Elle: Yeah. So these messaging systems that you're building are so much-- They can now go way beyond just building and establishing the messaging or iterating on the messaging, but also going into, like, the enablement of the messaging. So I love that. Okay, this is my last question for you on this topic. Um, what's one piece of advice you have for a PMM who's in the thick of it?
[00:52:35] They're trying to create, you know, establish that foundational messaging. What's-- If you had to pick one thing for them to walk away with, what, what should it be?
[00:52:45] Kevin: I think the first, um, the hardest thing for me that I always try to remember anytime I'm getting into any sort of exercise similar to what we covered today is that, um, messaging is hard because it's both an art and a science and, and that-- and because people, you know, words matter a lot to people, right?
[00:53:04] We're a very communicative society, and that, you know, that really matters at the end of the day. And so, just to be able to maybe calm yourself down and in the middle of a heated moment when someone's debating messaging with you, they're, they're probably just not-- They're, they may not be reacting to your messaging specifically or to your phrasing or word choice specifically.
[00:53:21] What they can sometimes be reacting to is, um, the strategy behind it And I think that, like we as PMMs, we're very prideful people, right? We, we wanna be?
[00:53:29] involved in the strategy. We wanna earn our seat at the table. But a strategy is something that's ultimately defined by a number of stakeholders, and hopefully, you know, we and any listener here is part of that group.
[00:53:40] But it is a group activity to create a strategy that as an organization you can commit to. And so a lot of the times when a mes- when what is messaging, if not strategy on a page, and so if there's a disagreement around messaging, sometimes it's good to just take a step back and take a breath and go, "Okay, is this a messaging problem or is it a strategy problem?"
[00:53:57] If I can divorce those two in my mind, I [00:54:00] can understand what it is that I need to do next, whether, whether that is like, hey, do we actually need to get, take a step back and do more strategic alignment, or is it actually a messaging problem? In which case, if it is a messaging problem, I do know how to solve it by, you know, again, digging back into that VOC, having more conversations and, you know, having a grounded, um, data-backed kind of opinionation again as a product marketer.
[00:54:21] Elle: I love that. And it's funny that it, it feels like, um, the one piece of advice is really anchored in a relationship driven, um, you know, the stakeholder- with the stakeholders. So, and it's so true, right? So I really, um, appreciate that note. This was such a powerful case study. I'm so glad that, you know, you were so generous to walk through it with us.
[00:54:44] All right, so now it's time for the next segment of our show. This is the messaging critique. So Kevin, this is where you and I as marketing experts get to analyze real world messaging, and the fun part is you get to pick the company that we analyze. Um, so let me throw out some quick ground rules. Um, first, you're gonna tell me something, after you reveal the company, of course, you're gonna say something that you're loving about the messaging, something that stood out to you in a positive way.
[00:55:08] Then you're gonna talk through something you wish the PMM would've done differently, and then lastly, we'll just do a quick brainstorm iterating on how that PMM can take it to the next level. So without further ado, please reveal the company that we'll be looking at today
[00:55:21] Kevin: Yeah. So I'm gonna, I think, take this a different direction than some of your other guests in the past. So I'll pick a, um, a physical device. Uh, and so for those of you who are familiar with, uh, Brick, it's a, uh, physical sort of square device and it, um, it essentially helps you lock your phone down so you stay, stay more present in the moment.
[00:55:40] Um, you know, which I need to sometimes when
[00:55:42] Elle: I was gonna say this should be a required product for, like, every American household. Okay, so it's, um, getbrick.com is the, the website for anyone who wants to kind of follow along. So okay, walk us through it. Like, tell us about the messaging and, like, what stood out to you
[00:55:56] Kevin: Yeah. So I think what really stuck out to me, [00:56:00] uh, was that-- So first of all, they, I think they lead a lot with, yes, like a very generic statement at times, and that maybe is part of my critique if we're gonna get there later on. But, um, really take your time back. But in terms of like how they message around maybe that key position is, um, not through actually using your phone more.
[00:56:18] And so right away they sort of call out the competitors in the space, which are like these, uh, other apps that sort of will help you limit your screen time by downloading yet another app in which you can set that time restriction. Um, with Brick, um, they make that more of a f- uh, that action more physical.
[00:56:34] So the value isn't just in blocking apps, it's actually from removing, um, that moment of negotiation with yourself where you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna extend my, you know, my limit 15 more minutes." You're actually locking down that entire phone and, um, it makes it easier, at least maybe now I'm speaking purely, uh, anecdotally about myself.
[00:56:51] It makes it easier for you to go, "Okay, well my phone's locked down. I'm just gonna put it in that drawer and I'm gonna come back to it like after my kids are asleep," or, you know, like, um, after I'm spending, you
[00:57:00] know, more time doing maybe what I should be doing, um, at the end of the day.
[00:57:04] Elle: All right, so let's get a little bit into the critique now. You, you gave us kind of like a tease of it with a generic piece. Go a little deeper. Tell us more
[00:57:13] Kevin: Yeah. So yeah, I think, like I said, the, the-- I think the whole adage of like helping keep time is still a little bit of a generic keyword. I think, uh, what really helps Brick differentiate themselves and, you know, why I ended up purchasing a couple for us was, um, they're not really just solving, I think, like a screen time problem.
[00:57:33] They're ultimately solving like a willpower problem. And so maybe, again, speaking for myself as I guess now calling myself someone with weak willpower, uh, once you sort of lock down that phone, uh, and it's truly been, I guess, bricked as the way that they might wanna, wanna call it, You know, I think that it reestablishes the willpower that you may not have had previously, right?
[00:57:55] So, you know, I know I can't access this and so-- And there's gonna be not just one step of extending [00:58:00] screen time, but, um, a, a physical step of repairing it with the brick. A f- another physical step of then going into my phone and hitting, "Yeah, I do wanna get unlocked." It's that multi-step process that I think is, uh, such a strong factor and, uh, also like maybe strategically where you have that brick in your house.
[00:58:15] And so if you have your brick like right when you walk through the front door, are you really gonna wanna shame yourself by walking back to the front door to, you know, to unbrick it again when you, when you have the urge to, so.
[00:58:25] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So it-- what I'm hearing is kind of like a behavior change, and it feels like they're kind of like anchoring around time-saving, which is I feel like a lot of PMMs fall back on that. Um, I'm not gonna lie, I have in my career. Um, but they have so much more opportunity here that they could lean into.
[00:58:48] So help us iterate a little bit. H-how would you take this to the next level?
[00:58:53] Kevin: Yeah. I think I'd, um, maybe like build off those moments that I just spoke about. So like you're walking through the door, you know. I mean, I'm not walking through many front doors these days because I work from home. But you're walking f- you know, you're walking through the front door. You're-- Maybe you're off work.
[00:59:06] And so, uh, I think that there's a lot more that they can do to take it to the next level to really like ground it in, um, the daily actions in which you want to, um, unplug and you want to leave that device behind. And so like when you get home, like brick, brick when you get home, you know, maybe you want to brick before dinner, before, you know, when you want the fullest attention of, uh-- When your kids want the fullest attention of you, which, you know, like again, speaking from experience, that's why we're doing that.
[00:59:31] And so I think it makes it feel less like, a productivity hack or, you know, something that's like y- something you feel like you are guilting yourself into doing and like a bit more of a smaller ritual for protecting that family time. So, you know, I'm walking through the front door and, you know, you brick when you get home and, and that's just what you do as a family, so.
[00:59:50] Elle: I love that. Like, and again, like it's coming back to like establishing like positive behaviors. So, really interesting. So all right, shout out to any Brick PMMs out [01:00:00] there. You've got some fans, and we have some ideas for you to try out. Check it out. All right, so Kevin, one thing that I always like to make space for on this podcast is a moment of, uh, gratitude because as product marketers, we never get to the next step in our career without learning from others.
[01:00:17] So this is just a genuine thank you for taking the time to prepare for this episode and then of course come on and have the generosity to go deep into your case study and, um, share your expertise. Thank you so much. Um, and then also I'd like to turn it around and give you the chance to give some shout-outs to some PMMs who have brought you to this moment.
[01:00:36] Kevin: Yeah. I guess in a, in a full circle moment, I will give a shout-out to my friend Jonathan Pipik from Blue Manta. Uh, I know he gave me a shout-out when, uh, he joined Your Applied, and so I'll return the favor. Jonathan is just like one of the most genuine PMMs that I've ever met. I think
[01:00:52] Elle: He's so kind, so he's a powerhouse PMM and just so generous with his
[01:00:57] Kevin: And he's someone that you can just talk shop with all day, and I think that, like, he was maybe like the first PMM that I feel like became a true friend that I've never actually worked with before. And I think that's like a good testament to the type of connections that he's, I think, built with the community.
[01:01:11] So definitely Jonathan, you know, this one's for you. Shout-out Jonathan. I think, uh, the other two that maybe I'll just shout out really quickly are, Study and Saurabh. These are two PMMs that I worked with back when I was at Hootsuite. I think we were all, you know-- I think that you often think back fondly to like the earliest PMM days that you have.
[01:01:29] And for me, like it was getting in the, you know, being in the weeds with them and getting some stuff done. And so, Yeah
[01:01:34] shout-out to them in terms of like just how we've, uh, I think continued to grow and push each other and stay close, I think, through, um, the careers that we all, you know, have on this winding road that's product marketing.
[01:01:44] Elle: I love that. I love that. Shout out to PMM peers. Thank you, friends. Um, all right. Well, thank you so much, Kevin. I really appreciate that. I swear this is my last question for you. Where else can we access your expertise? Is it best to find you on LinkedIn?
[01:01:59] Kevin: Yeah, [01:02:00] LinkedIn is the best. Um, I am also, uh, a mentor for both the Product Marketing Alliance as well as ADP List. And so, I li- love giving back to the community. I think that actually sometimes I learn more about, um, when I'm in the heat of a conversation with somebody else that also loves product marketing and love the way that I've been able to meet other PMMs through that mentorship program on both sides.
[01:02:21] And so, um, you can find me, yeah, again, LinkedIn?
[01:02:24] ADP List, or the, uh, PMA mentorship group as well.
[01:02:27] Elle: Oh, that's so kind. I love the mentorship. Thank you. Thank you. Um, again, Kevin, thanks so much. This has been awesome. And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, uh, please share it with a PMM friend, and I would be so grateful if you would leave us a review. It helps tremendously with our reach. Thank you so much for coming on this adventure with us today.
[01:02:46] I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
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