Navigate Stakeholders Like a GoldCast PMM
Navigating stakeholder relationships during massive change feels like solving a puzzle while someone keeps hiding the pieces. You're trying to align sales, customer success, leadership, and customers around a new narrative, but everyone's amygdala is firing warning signals that scream "stick with what we know!" That's the reality Anand Patel faced at Goldcast when they decided to shift from being "just a webinar tool" to owning the full video platform story.
Here's what makes this challenging: you're not just managing different opinions. You're managing different threat responses. Sales is comfortable with the old pitch that's been working. Customer success worries about confusing existing customers. Leadership questions whether the timing is right. Each stakeholder group has legitimate concerns rooted in that fundamental human resistance to uncertainty.
Anand's approach to this psychological minefield is what separates average repositioning attempts from ones that actually stick. Rather than treating stakeholders as a monolithic group that needs to "get on board," he views them as individuals with distinct needs, fears, and motivations. By understanding what each group stands to gain, and what they're afraid of losing, he tailored his communication and change management tactics to fit each unique relationship.
Decoding the Stakeholder Puzzle
One of the core elements of Anand's strategy is transparency paired with continuous communication. When you're asking people to abandon familiar territory, keeping communication lines wide open helps mitigate the misunderstandings that fuel resistance. He stressed the necessity of flexibility; being genuinely open to altering plans as feedback and new information surface. This isn't weakness. It's what builds stakeholder trust during uncertain transitions.
Anand also emphasised something most PMMs overlook: acknowledging the discomfort openly. Instead of pretending the shift is simple or painless, he validated concerns whilst painting a compelling picture of what's possible on the other side. That balance between "I see why this feels risky" and "here's why it's worth it" is what transforms resistance into cautious optimism.
The Remarkable Messaging Critique
For this segment of the show, Anand chose Remarkable, a digital notebook product as our subject, evaluating how their messaging navigates stakeholder engagement. While Remarkable excels in innovation and design storytelling, there's room for improvement in aligning their unique selling propositions with the diverse needs of their user base. It's a common trap, falling in love with what makes your product special whilst forgetting to connect those features to the specific challenges your stakeholders actually face.
Anand dissected Remarkable's approach, highlighting how tighter alignment between their messaging and target stakeholder pain points could significantly enhance their market position. The lesson? Craft messages that don't just communicate benefits but resonate with the specific anxieties, goals and daily realities your audience is navigating.
The Real Work of Leading Change
It’s clear that leading narrative shifts isn't just about having a better story. It's about understanding the psychology of change and meeting people where their brains actually are - not where you wish they were. Anand's playbook proves that effective change leadership is both art and science: strategic in approach, empathetic in execution, and relentlessly focused on the humans behind the titles.
If you're facing a similar repositioning challenge or trying to rally stakeholders around a bold new direction, embracing transparency, flexibility, and tailored communication isn't just nice-to-have. It's what separates initiatives that fizzle from ones that fundamentally transform how your market sees you.
The path to successful narrative shifts starts with understanding that resistance isn't the enemy—it's just your stakeholders' brains doing exactly what they're designed to do. Your job is to guide them through the discomfort towards what's possible on the other side.
LINKS:
Remarkable (messaging critique): https://remarkable.com/
Connect with Anand:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anandmpatel/
Connect with Elle:
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[00:00:42] Elle: I am sure you've all experienced this. Change messes with our brains. Psychologists call it a threat state. Our brains crave certainty and familiarity, so when something shifts, the Amil amygdala lights up and we resist. That's why sales teams clinging to old pitch decks. [00:01:00] CX dreads the new flow, and even leadership second guesses the strategy, and yet we also crave progress.
Research shows that humans are motivated by growth mastery and the possibility of something better. That tension, that discomfort of leaving the unknown and the pull towards what's possible. That's exactly where product marketers live. Lucky. Yes. It's certainly a thrill. because sometimes in product marketing, our job isn't just to tell stories, it's to lead change.
That's what today's episode is all about. I can't wait to walk through this amazing story about gold cast. They pulled off a massive narrative shift from being just a webinar tool to owning the bigger story as a full video platform. With me today from Gold Cast is their senior Director of product marketing, an Anand Patel.
Anand is such an impressive PMM. Let me tell you why. He has built the product marketing front function at four different companies. That's [00:02:00] an amazing accomplishment that speaks both to his versatility and marketing and leadership. Over the past five years, he's launched more than 10 tier one products, each one driving meaningful impact in its market.
And here's one I love. When youth sports came to a standstill during COVID and on played a critical role in helping a youth sports software company pivot and thrive proving that great product marketing isn't just about launches, it's about resiliency and creativity.
And it's amazing to have you on the show.
[00:02:31] Anand: Hey Al. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:02:34] Elle: Awesome. Okay, let's dive right in. We have so many exciting things to talk about. so before we jump in, give us some context and help us understand like, what is gold cast For anyone that doesn't know, keep us all on the same page.
[00:02:48] Anand: Sure. So Gold Cast Now is a AI powered video content platform that helps marketers basically create, amplify, and measure video content. So this is starting with like having really engaging webinars, [00:03:00] podcasts, or customer interviews, and then use using AI to repurpose and amplify that into a variety of different content that you can use across a bunch of channels to essentially reach out and, and engage with your audience.
[00:03:12] Elle: I think this is such an exciting market to play in right now. Um, I'm feeling like video is popping up more and more as like the go-to tool for engagement. So super helpful context. and for this episode, the focus of today is managing stakeholders through a narrative shift and being that change agent.
So we're gonna start with a case study for the first segment of this show. Take us back to when Gold Cast was making that transition from. Webinars and events to a true video platform. What was happening behind the scenes?
[00:03:44] Anand: Yeah, so I got there in about June, 2023, and so for anyone that doesn't know, gold Cast was born in probably like May, 2020. And so for the first three years or so, they have done a really good job building like a presence and a name for themselves in the webinar space. [00:04:00] Um, and then shortly after I got there, we had launched a new product called Content Lab, which was all around repurposing and using AI to take long form video content IE webinars and turn them into more assets and videos that you can use across different channels, as I mentioned earlier.
And so this was like a new play for us. Shortly after that, launching that, we made it into a standalone product and we saw a lot of early traction and positive sentiment. Like this was something people were excited about and it gave vindication to our founders. That we needed to move, expand from just being a webinar tool into a larger like video media play, which had always been in the back of their mind.
So that, that's kind of like the, the context of what was happening. Um, and I'm happy to kind of walk through some of the other things that I, I, I went through if you want me to do that as well.
[00:04:44] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. So as you kind of saw this early indication, or your founder saw this early indication that this is a place where we needed to be, then enter you as being, the PMM lead on. This new initiative, [00:05:00] what was kind of your task at hand and how did you, how did you first start to realize like, okay, this is something I need to focus on?
[00:05:07] Anand: Yeah, so ultimately like the main thing, the founders had a very good sense that we needed to reposition our company, right? Like. We no longer wanted to have sales calls where people came to the calls and be like, Hey, we are looking for a webinar tool like that. That's still a huge use case that we serve and continue to serve, but we wanted to be known as something bigger than that.
And so I was lucky enough where the founders, our CEO, gave me the trust to take on and lead this key initiatives with them, obviously in support. And so what happened was really four things. One. It was trying to make a shift in the way that we cat, like the, the category that we position ourselves in.
We're no longer gonna be a events or a a, a virtual events or a webinar, uh, category. We wanna be something a little bit larger than that. with that we had to formally kind of update our overall strategic narrative to play a role in that story that we wanted to tell. And then from that came the ideas of like.
[00:06:00] Restructuring pricing to make sure it aligned with our vision. And then the, probably the most important thing is to create internal alignment, right? To make sure everyone is consistently telling that story, especially the go to market teams, but just everyone in general within the organization needed to be on the same page and telling that same story out to the market.
[00:06:16] Elle: Right. Totally. And so as you were, building the story and doing all that en enablement and managing all those stakeholders, kind of give the reveal what happened at the end of the story. You know, how, what, what was the end result or, maybe you're still kind of working on that end result, but, what's some early indication of success that you saw?
[00:06:35] Anand: Yeah. So in terms of like what happened next, once I knew kind of what we needed to do, obviously I worked closely with the founders to pull out information from them of like, what's the story they believe in, what's the vision that they believe in? And that was like the foundations of everything.
And then I started running two, kind of like cus parallel customer interview, customer discovery, uh, projects. One was around like what video meant to our customer, because we weren't sure. It was like, [00:07:00] does webinar and video go hand in hand? And we weren't like we, we weren't sure and that we were very internally sold on the idea of video, but we wanted to make sure it aligned with our customers and our audience.
Right? So, I, I, I, I, I didn't have a, like a ton, maybe like seven or eight conversations I held around that topic. And honestly, I think half of them saw it as a relationship. Some of 'em did not see video and webinar as a, as a thing that goes together, but half of those 50% were able to like connect the dots if we just talked a little bit about it.
Right? So it wasn't like a complete a hundred percent vindication that video is the right choice. But I think we had enough kind of gut feel internally and, and enough kind of small signals from the customer conversations that we can move forward with that. And then the second kind of parallel track was talking to about 15, 20 folks with one of my founders and, and myself.
To see if the, the narrative that we had around like Mindshare, Mindshare marketing really resonated and we could tell from off the bat that really did resonate. So that was, that was positive. And then from [00:08:00] there, that's where we started building out collateral, making sure everyone in the team was enabled, and then update messaging, messaging everywhere.
And so, like, to your point, it was not like, Hey, it took a week and we're done. Right? Like, we are still working on this right now. Like, um, we continue to iterate on our, on our story. We're still making sure that everyone internally is still telling that story. I would say the initial few months of trying to get, especially the go-to market teams to change that story was a struggle.
Like they were like, like they had things that were working. They liked their talk tracks, they liked their process, and we were like completely shifting and, and like erupt, like disrupting that, right? So that was difficult to do, but we've gotten there and we continue to work on that. But we've seen like improvements in our A CV as we've shifted from just being a webinar tool to a more end-to-end video content platform.
We've seen like organically on. On LinkedIn and other places where people have started talking, like mind share and, and being top of mind and how important that is. And I, I wouldn't say that's all because of us, but it's important that that story is being told out in the market. Um, [00:09:00] again, when you are shifting categories and shift, try to tell a strategic narrative.
It, it takes a long time. It's an ever going thing, right? And so we're continuing to work at it, but we've seen signals that it has, we've definitely made a lot of progress over the last year, year and a half.
[00:09:13] Elle: Yeah, and it could be so easy to want to give up when you don't see the immediate results, but it sounds like you had some signals along the way that showed you that you were on the right track. Right. Like earlier on you mentioned that you had the conversations with customers and and a lot of your vision was resonating.
And then, and then even later, after. Launching and going to market. You saw that the increase in, in a CV. So that's all such good stuff and I wanna get into it a little deeper in terms of what an actual playbook for you looked like. So, let's think about this from this perspective. Let's say that I'm a PMM who's, leading a big narrative shift, something totally different, whether it's shifting markets or shifting to a platform message or whatever it may be.
I've got all these [00:10:00] stakeholders that I need to manage, um, and I have to be that change agent. So kind of give us a quick summary of like what your playbook looks like, maybe from start to finish.
[00:10:10] Anand: Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost it's all about, alignment or just trust and belief from, whether it's the founders, if you're a small organization or if you're a large organization like key leaders and stakeholders. Like if they do not believe in the need to make this kind of shift and switch, it doesn't matter how much effort, how great the story is, how great the category is, it won't matter, right?
So I've been at organizations where. I've proposed a shift in like how we position ourselves and the story that we tell. And everyone loves it. They're all on board, but they're not willing to put in the extra effort to bring it to life, both internally and championing internally with the rest of the company, but as well, as well as externally.
Right? And so like, It was the best story. It was a great story. Everyone loved it, but it just didn't go anywhere, right? So it all starts with getting. Founder, CEO, key leadership buy-in. And by [00:11:00] buyin it doesn't mean like how they bought into, like us doing the project, it means they're bought in to live and breathe this
change. Right. And the participating and the advocating for it internally and externally. So that was definitely like a big thing. And then it's really about seeing like, how do we like try to shift from one thing to a complete 180 to a whole different thing is it's a lot of effort. Like I, I, I wouldn't recommend that.
Right. So like, it's about how do you. How do you bridge the gaps to where you want to go? Hopefully the, it's, you know, built off the vision and the vision is not a completely one eight com complete 180 of what you are. Right? So for us it was from webinars to video, and there was a ladder, there was a bridge that we could make, right?
And so it's about how do we make sure that we are telling that story and extending that story a little bit, versus completely changing it. And then it's like, you know, make sure that you're, you're running, Research and custom conversations, make sure it resonates, it lands, and then, then it all goes into the enablement piece.
And having a strong drumbeat of continuing to tell this story, especially internally, like it's easy for us to do, like [00:12:00] spend three weeks on enablement with the sales team, give them a new deck and do certifications, and then a month later they're back using the old stuff again. Right. And so how do you continue to have repetition?
[00:12:10] Elle: right, exactly. Because as we've learned through psychological research, change is scary and it's frustrating and it's something we have to work on in order to see that progress. And you've, you've said it with how long that it's take, that it has taken, and you're still working on it and you're seeing some progress, but It just takes time and effort.
so now what I wanna do is. take your playbook and let's break it down and focus on each. I dunno step, if you will, and maybe they're not happening necessarily in chronological order. Some things are probably happening in parallel, so totally get that. But starting with the first step, right? You talked about getting founders or the C-Suite on board, that executive sponsorship, when you had to do that with Gold cast, what did that look like in practice?
[00:12:56] Anand: Yeah. So in terms of getting them on board, and kinda [00:13:00] aligned, I, it was a, it was a positive situation where it wasn't me going to them saying, Hey, we need to make this switch. It was them saying, we are seeing signals right from the launch of this new content lab thing where. We need to adjust how we think of our, uh, how the market thinks of us, right?
They had already from the beginning, had this idea of like media platform in the back of their minds, right? We, they just hadn't brought it to life yet. And it was probably a longer term vision and I think it got accelerated. I think I, I know it got accelerated based on that launch and seeing how much people like really resonated with it.
and so like the exec executive sponsorship was there 'cause they believed in the switch. Then it all became about like keeping them. always on the con conversation. It wasn't like, Hey, we had one conversation, then we went away, and then I came back with stuff. It's keeping them involved throughout the whole
thing, I had multiple conversations to understand like what their vision was, what's the story that we're telling. Um, I'm fortunate enough where our founders and gold cast is, it's about 150 people, so [00:14:00] not like a huge company. Right. But we're, we're scaling, but like our founders are very, have a very good, strong pulse on what's happening in the market.
They have a lot of conversations with VPs and marketing CMOs and customers and so like. Understanding what they're seeing, and I was able to have multiple conversations. It wasn't just one, it was weeks of just having that continuous conversation, coming back with a story or a position, potential like category, getting their thoughts and feedback on it, iterating on it.
So it, it took a few weeks to finally get to a place where they felt comfortable and they feel confident in what kind of the, the package product was there.
[00:14:36] Elle: Yeah. So, that is very lucky to have, by the way, to, come into a situation where the CEO or the founders or the C-Suite is initiating the change or. You know, you're starting off with them being on board with the change. so let's say, you know, I've got my CEO on board, or Yes, they've, maybe they initiated the, idea and now I need to [00:15:00] move on to step two.
I know you talked about, making, I dunno if it was like making a plan, but it was like looking at where you wanna go and where you are today. So it sounds like kind of like a benchmark maybe. So tell us more about what that step is all about.
[00:15:12] Anand: Yeah. For, for there, it's like, again, there was this whole idea of media platform, right? And we ended up not going that direction. maybe that is somewhere we end up five years from now. Right. But we knew that wasn't the next stepping stone as an organization. Well, it was the next stepping stone is the fact that we were able to create all these v um, like derivative video content from long form, um, initially from webinars, but now from other long form video as well.
And so that's why we felt video was the right next step. It was the next stepping stone to potential what this larger vision is gonna be five years from now. And for us it was really. It was about making sure that we weren't alienating our existing like market and customer base, um, who had known and come to know us for being around webinars and virtual events.
So if [00:16:00] we saw it went hard to the market with like video, video, video content, right? Like would that alienate what people thought of gold cast? And so that's why I mentioned earlier, we ran all these conversations to see like this video and webinars are people able to connect the dots And we felt enough confidence that they could.
Um, but we also decided like if we truly wanted to make a shift in who, how people thought of us, we would have to kind of shake the boat a little bit. Right? Like when you come to our website, we talk about video content and video. We don't talk about webinars as like we do, but not, that's not upfront and center.
Right. And
[00:16:32] Elle: right. It's a use case, but it's
[00:16:34] Anand: Yeah.
Correct. It's a use case, so it may feel uncomfortable, especially it feels uncomfortable for the sales team and other folks who are like their main thing they're selling is still webinars. People that come to our door still, they're like, oh, we need to, we need a new webinar tool.
Right? And so like, but we are pitching them a video content platform so it, it's like, you know what people are coming from what we are pitching can, it's sometimes a little off, but then once you like start telling the story, you can connect the dots. And so like that was [00:17:00] really the extension that we had to make and help people feel comfortable with making that extension.
[00:17:03] Elle: Right. It's not like you're starting out with, Hey, I know you came to us for a webinar platform conversation. Now I wanna talk to you about, you know, retail point of sale. Like, it's not some completely,
[00:17:16] Anand: Yeah.
[00:17:17] Elle: you know, far off thing. Right? Okay. Okay. So here you are. You've got the CEO or whatever C-Suite on board.
You, uh, as an active participant, you've. Found, you've confirmed and validated that like, okay, people can connect the dots. This isn't a crazy, it's a natural shift, right? From where we're where we wanna go. So what's step three? What do you do next?
[00:17:40] Anand: I mean, so we've, we've done the validation, right? And, and the, the main thing is, like I said, we talked to multiple customers. I think then it's like trying to bring that to life, and ultimately what that means is the main kind of true north of this is like everyone is singing the same song, right?
Everyone's traveling in the same direction. I've been in [00:18:00] organizations where it felt like everyone. Was traveling, but traveling in different directions. Right? And so like, that doesn't really get you to a destination, it just gets everyone somewhere, right?
Um, and so that was like the main thing. And so like we had to figure out like what our enablement plan was there, and more importantly, about just enabling people.
It was getting the company on board with this shift. Like I said, it, it was. Uh, and you know, the reason you and I kind of connected is because I had this LinkedIn post about how this was one of my most favorite launches because it caused a lot of like, friction internally. Right. Um, and that's what it was, is like, again, when people are used to certain ways of doing things, if they're comfortable in the talk tracks and the processes and like the, the differentiators that they talk about, if, and we are throwing like a.
A landmine in that's shifting how they all, how they do it, it takes a lot of like effort to like build trust. Like, hey, let's, we need to do this, let's do this. And so it was ongoing conversations with the sales team, getting their feedback on [00:19:00] things. I would, um, tap in our, our founders or our CEO and be like, Hey, I need you to come to this meeting.
And you tell 'em your point of view on this versus me trying to enable them on this because it's different coming from our CEO versus me. You know, this, this product marketer who just joined the company three months ago, et
[00:19:17] Elle: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I can totally imagine that being really challenging. I could, you know, for me, I have a framework that I use to be able to produce my podcast at a high quality, and if someone came in here and said, we're changing that, we're doing a big shift, you're no longer doing this framework that you know you can do by at the back of your hand Now.
You do this new thing, then I have to learn something new. It's effort, as you pointed out. Um, so it takes, you know, trust and conversations and progress and working in order to, to get there. so I wanna hear a little bit more about, and you kind of, you started to mention it, right? Like this enablement plan and. And how you maybe used or leveraged your, um, state, your [00:20:00] executive sponsor, whether that's, you know, the founder C-suite or some super senior person. How did you leverage their voice? And you, you mentioned already like bringing them in on some sales team conversations. Like is there anything else that you did and did you do those more like ad hoc or was it kind of like very strategic, like part of your enablement plan?
[00:20:17] Anand: It, it was a bit of both. So there were times where like we had a company kickoff and that was strategically and intentional, like we were gonna have our CEO and our founder. Talk through, this is our new narrative. This is how we're gonna position ourselves. Here's kind of our vision as a company. And like, so that was purposeful, right?
Like to the whole company. This is how we're going to do things moving forward. And it came from the top right. Um, and then we broke off from that where we had individual sessions, but even that, like leading up to that company kickoff, I had separate sessions with each functional team. So it wasn't like the first time they heard it was from the CEO.
The, the, the conversation that came from the CEO at the, um, kickoff was more just, more validation that yes, this is actually important. Like, you know, AP [00:21:00] came and talked to us about it and I had a conversations I'd ask them, like what they need to help bring this to life in their team, and then the workflows.
But now they got validation a few weeks later from our CEO that this is a priority, this is important. It's coming from him. Right. So that was like a strategic decision. And then there were times where like, especially with like go to market teams where like, hey, we, we are pitching and showing off this new sales deck, and there's some concerns about like how much we're talking about mindshare and video and not going straight to the point of like why our webinar solution is better and things like that.
Right. And so for those conversations, you know, I, I would take the feedback, I would understand where their concerns were, and then I'd go back to our founders and say, Hey look, here's where the concerns are. I think it's important for you one, or you or both of you, to come to the next meeting and share your opinions and share what your perspective and your responses to that.
Because again, the, it's important for them, the go to market teams, full trust from the founders that they hear this feedback, they hear this concern, but this is why we're [00:22:00] going in this direction and this is why it's important that we all tell this story.
[00:22:03] Elle: Yeah, so I've had experience where, and I, I saw this at Twilio. I saw it at Cisco, where I've had sales salespeople come back to me with feedback about, you know, a sales deck, for example. And they say, this is too much vision.
Uh,
my customers just wanna hear what our product can do and why, why they should buy it, with the benefits are and why it's, better than anyone else.
And I get that feedback of too much vision. I don't want any of that. It sounds like maybe you saw that sometimes, and I'm curious, like was is your go-to, like what do you do? Like, do you still keep that vision part in there? It sounds like you did and. you just got the basically your executive sponsor to be like, sorry, we're keeping it in.
[00:22:44] Anand: Yeah,
Yeah, this is not a uncommon, like I've, I've felt this in multiple places that I've gone and we've tried to make this whole like, narrative thing, like really catch on, right? Um, if you look at like Andy Raskin or in some of those
other kind of folks who talk
about narrative, like there's like, there's like five to [00:23:00] eight to nine slides that they suggest you have in your deck, right?
That's a lot of slides for a sales rep or anyone on the CX site to even go through, right? And so in terms of like, how do I, how do we kind of approach this once we got, especially once we got feedback. I think one thing was to figure out are there ways to skim down the number of slides? Because I think it's not even the story.
'cause there could be 10 slides and I could, I, I would record a loom of me doing that story and it would take me a few minutes. Right? But it was the sheer volume of like, Hey, I have 10 slides I have to get to through before I could even get to like the product stuff. Right? So that, that seems daunting.
And so we look for opportunities where we can cut down the number of slides, maybe like combine things or take the talk track for one and still have it still sit on top of
another slide. And then I, I worked with like our, our sales leader as well as our founders, to figure out like out of these whatever slide number or slides there are, which ones are like pivotal, which ones have to be like, addressed in the conversation.
And so like, we gave people options, like they could skip things, [00:24:00] right? But they, they were certain things they had to bring up and mentioned. It didn't have to be them showing the slide it, but they had to voice it over, right? They had to tell that and connect that story. Um, so yeah, that's kind of how we, how we approached it.
Ultimately, to your point, at the end of the day, the founder, the CEOs, they, they came in and said, look, this change is important for us as we grow our business. Like we, if we are just seen as a webinar tool for the next five years, it's not gonna support the growth that we want as a company. We have to do this.
Right. So as much as like this back and forth, or is this the right decision? It, it was a decision from the top down. Like, this is important for the company and we have to all, uh, play a role in that.
[00:24:41] Elle: right. Exactly. Yeah.
I love being able to use that executive sponsor when needed. Like sometimes you just need bring in the big guns.
[00:24:49] Anand: Correct.
[00:24:50] Elle: other ways that I personally have overcome that is we, I had this one like really incredible salesperson at Twilio and together [00:25:00] we came together and we. We talked through like, okay, how could we take this big story vision and make it more of like a conversation with a customer and less of like me talking at you and telling you the vision?
And I feel like it worked really well, but it wasn't easily trainable. You know, like only really good. Really seasoned experience reps could pull that off. But some of the more junior reps, I think, like, had a harder time. So, you know, it's ha, it's tough, it's tough to like try to get that into a sales deck.
The, the, the vision part, you know?
[00:25:35] Anand: Correct. E even for us, like I, I fall at the typical advice of like, Hey, pick out one or two salespeople to run this with first just to get validation and proof points. I, one or two respected sales folks that have, you know, have done well in their time at Gold Cast. I did that they enjoyed, like, they thought it resonated, but like it was still hard to bring, like build like in overall like, uh, consensus.
Like this is the right, you [00:26:00] know, direction to go. Um, even in the deck itself, like I pinpointed, I had like this kind of, um, companion deck that would show each slide it would talk about, here's some discovery questions to ask.
Here's some things like, is funny 'cause in the conversations that we had with customers around the narrative, we had talked to a CMO who, who brought this up.
So I, and she sent me her companion deck that she's used in the past, and so I stole it from her. So I appreciate it. Appreciate that. Her name was Deb Wolf, so, um, shout out to
her. But, yeah, that was like something I created, but to your point of like conversation, I made sure like we had like.
Not on every slide, but like on key slides, like, here's, here's a great trigger for a conversation that can open up more learning
and having back and forth. but again, it's like a big change and a big shift to make. So even if you have that conversational aspects to it, like it does take a lot of repetition for someone to really start building that into their workflow.
[00:26:50] Elle: yeah, Yeah.
What a great tip. Pmms. Take note.
[00:26:53] Anand: Yeah.
[00:26:54] Elle: Okay, so you got this like massive enablement process that I'm sure took forever. [00:27:00] Once you, I'm, you're probably still working on it, but once you feel like you have a strong handle on the enablement piece. What's the last step of your playbook?
[00:27:09] Anand: so now you have the enablement. Now it's like, obviously like your internal teams and your go to market teams are hopefully telling that same story or at least. Some version of that story that you continue to work with them on. Now it's also about just making sure you're covering all the other channels too, as an organization.
Right? So that really comes down to the marketing team for the most part. Um, are we telling the right story and the right are we clearly articulating our position on our website, on review sites, on our own social channels? And so just making sure that we have alignment across that. Even from a product marketing perspective, like I make sure as a team that we, we don't do a hundred percent perfectly, but every release that we have, is there an opportunity to tie that story into that small, even if it's a tier three, like small release, it's just a small release note that goes somewhere on the website, right?
Like, how do we make sure we bake in that story? So we continuously have a drumbeat of what we're saying. [00:28:00] Um. From a content perspective, a content team took this full messaging framework document I had, and like they're building that story around Mindshare marketing and video content and other topics are relevant.
We have, um, like a thought leadership program going where our CMO and our founders are joining podcasts and doing speaking sessions to continue to kind of have a drumbeat in that voice in the market. So it was, it came, became more of the, the market voice that we had to start building out as well.
[00:28:28] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. So you're kind of leading into what my next question was gonna be is. How did this look like from the customer's perspective? It sounds like you activated a number of channels, and you talked about, you know, it sounds like media pitching and, all that sort of things. Are there any, like pieces of content or like, I guess like the messaging that really stood out for you in terms of how this may have looked like for a customer and what you feel like was a really strong success with getting this new narrative in front of the customer?
[00:28:57] Anand: I wouldn't say it was a success right away. It took a little [00:29:00] bit of effort to figure out what the right approach was with existing customers. we were at May Con last year, which is a large like, marketing AI conference and that's actually where we had been talk, talking about video a lot.
And a lot of people thought of video in different ways, like motion graphics, and that's where we edit, added the content word to it. So video content to make it more re uh, you know, relative to what we were specifically supporting with. But it was at that event where, um, I came to realize like we had been championing this whole content lab and content repurposing and video repurposing this thing so much, and we still had customers who had no idea that that thing was available to them.
Right. And so like, it's, it's like the product marketing dilemma of like, no matter how much you shout from the rooftops, like people still will not hear, right. Still fall on deaf ears. so what ended up working well so far, and I, I wouldn't say it's. Perfect yet, right? But what's worked so well so far is one.
We've tried to build a better kind of like relationship with CS so that they help champion a lot of this stuff when they're having [00:30:00] customer conversations. Right. and a big resource that has played a role in that is that we've started building out these things called playbooks. So if you go to, um.
Our website, we have a whole section around playbooks where it's partially customer stories and partially our own internal stories of how we're using our own platform for different things. So like we're doing,
we're doing recording a customer interview, and then we're taking that customer interview and creating a clip and using our gen editor to make it like really engaging.
And then we put that into an ad and like it's a full like
three, four step kind of playbook. it's been great. And the CS team like loves it. They're, they're using that in their conversations. And so maybe it's, it's not as like a broad thing, like we do put it on social and stuff like that, but it's even in one-on-one conversations.
It's allowing the CS team to have a more effective way of talking about how you can expand your usage of our platform.
[00:30:46] Elle: I love that. Yeah.
And a really great way to help customers get started with, I guess just diving deep into your new narrative and your new offerings. So I love that. That's great. Okay, so I wanna summarize what I think [00:31:00] I've heard today. For what? Your playbook not, not to confuse with the playbook you're giving your customers, the playbook we're giving to pmms.
what you did, I think. to pursue this big narrative shift, you've got executive sponsorship or maybe it's their priority that they've given you. you've got this, I, what it sounds like establishing a point of view on where you are now and where you wanna be and how you're gonna get to where you wanna be, um, making sure that that.
It's an easy shift, right? Not like a 180. You validated that with customers. and then you did the big enablement push with the sales team and maybe the rest of the company too. And then you had that drumbeat that where you partnered with the marketing team and you made sure that this story got out into all the channels and all the places.
does that capture everything? Let me know if I missed anything.
[00:31:51] Anand: No, that, that's a good summary of like the steps it takes. Obviously there's a lot of nuances to it for every organization, but like those are generally like the, the process that we [00:32:00] followed to get to this point. It's still a working in progress. Right. But like we, we've definitely made it, made a lot of, um, movement and we've come a long way from where it was just a few years ago.
[00:32:09] Elle: Yeah. Okay. So now I'm really curious, if you were to do this again from the start, how would you use ai? Or maybe you did use ai, but what part of AI would you leverage to, accelerate or increase the efficiency of all the product marketing aspects of this entire initiative? Or would you not use it at all?
And why?
[00:32:31] Anand: Yeah, I, I would definitely use that. I don't remember if I used it too much when we were doing this about, you know, a year and a half, two years ago. I'd probably use it a little bit, but like some areas where I could definitely see it being valuable is synthesizing a lot of the conversations. So the founder conversations, trying to take all those, again, it wasn't just one conversation, it was multiple conversations.
So I could take transcripts and try to pull out the key nuggets in terms of like, what matters to them, what's the vision, the customer conversations I was having, or the key [00:33:00] themes or, or like, Hey, I talked to eight people about the, the idea of video. What were some of their concerns? What, where were some of the kinda lack of, uh, clarity and what video means to them?
Like, it, it would've been a good way to just like, summarize and take all those nuggets away. Um. And then I think after that point, I'm, I'm sure there's a way you can leverage AI to help build out like the narrative and stuff like that.
I think you could, yeah, you could definitely use it to support, but also you have to just be very careful.
Like it has to basically as authentic to the way that you wanna speak as a company. What's, what's important to the, to the, to the founders and the executives themselves? the other thing, like, I would probably, I don't know how I would do this, but I think it would be very important and very effective, is to have, like whether there's a custom GPT or whatever tool you're using.
A kind of like a hub where the go to market or internal teams can go to ask questions around this narrative and it could help, kind of enable them. Right.
Um, and so I think that would be, I could still do that. Right? It's still, it could still be a very, uh, useful even now. So I think that could be a, a very fun way to leverage AI to help with enablement [00:34:00] piece
[00:34:00] Elle: I. I'm actually seeing that a lot. Like in some of these conversations that I've had with product marketers, I'm seeing like, it's like a go-to-market engineer sort of who like builds these, or sometimes PMM can do it too, but like, we'll build these custom GPTs, like for enablement or, you know, build out an agent, agent
[00:34:19] Anand: Yeah.
[00:34:19] Elle: With quotes.
Um,
[00:34:22] Anand: Yeah. I, I built one. I built one recently. Um. Where our CS team can tap into it, and it pulls all the playbooks, customer quotes, case studies. And so if like, Hey, we have this customer who needs to, who wants to do a little bit more of this, can you help me? And it'll pull all the right content for it, for the CS to use with that customer.
So like there's so many great, so many great ways to use ai, it's just to, it's probably an endless way of using it. So just trying to figure out where do you have the most gaps that you want to help,
[00:34:47] Elle: I know. I love that. Yeah, likewise. Okay, so, um, before we move on to the next segment of a show, I have to ask if, uh, like if you were to give [00:35:00] PAPM M1 piece of advice, who's embarking on this, like big narrative shift and stakeholder management? Initiative, what's like one, and you know, maybe they're nervous about the pushback.
Like what's one piece of advice that you would give?
[00:35:14] Anand: Um, I might cheat and give two, two pieces of advice
here. One is just like, if, if, if, if it doesn't feel like. The leadership team is kind of demanding this and pushing for it. Be skeptical about how much effort you're gonna put into it. 'cause again, I've, I've gone through this process, done a lot of effort.
Everyone loves the output, but then nothing happens with it, right? And so it just becomes wasted effort, which is unfortunate. Um, but if you are doing it correctly and if the leadership team is like really prioritizing this and pushing this, it is gonna be a bumpy ride. Like I mentioned, there are uncomfortable conversations.
Everyone has concerns. Change management is a very difficult thing for people to deal with. So just like have empathy, um. Take the feedback. Like there were times [00:36:00] where like I got feedback from CX or sales and like, you know, they were not for something and kind of stings a little bit. 'cause you put so much effort in the work and you're like, ah, they, they don't know what they're talking about.
But if you like, take a step back. You realize like they're coming from a place where they are talking to prospects, they're talking to customers on the day to day. Like they have a very, very important view into this. Right? And so, like, it allowed me to like rethink things. Um, and it doesn't mean that I take every, every piece of feedback for and and, and operationalize it, right?
But there are things that can really help you do better. And sometimes you just have to put your ego aside and be like, you know what? That, that's a very good point. I'm gonna make an adjustment here.
[00:36:37] Elle: Yeah, I think that's really smart piece of feedback because when you think about it, as much time and effort as we, as product marketers spend creating the narrative for us, we're not like speaking it every single day until the narrative changes, which could be years and those salespeople every single [00:37:00] day.
[00:37:00] Anand: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:01] Elle: So I, um, yeah, I agree. Definitely want to. Bring those guys along for the ride and make 'em feel like their feedback is valuable. okay. Thank you so much, Anand, for walking us through that incredible case study. Um, now I would like to yeah. Move on to the next segment of our show. It is the messaging critique.
So this is where we as product marketing experts get to analyze real world messaging. Um, but you, as the guest of my show, get to pick the company. So before we get started, I wanna share the ground rules for everyone who may be new to this. So, uh, first you're gonna tell me, um, you obviously tell us what the company is and.
Who their target audience is and what they do and all that. you're gonna tell us something that you're loving about the messaging, like what's working, what's resonating, um, and why. And then you're gonna tell us something that you wish the PMM would've considered when they were building the messaging, um, or bringing it to market.
And [00:38:00] then finally. Um, we're gonna do a fun brainstorm and iterate a little bit and give that PMM some ideas on what they can do with the messaging, maybe some creative content or campaign or something. yeah. So without further ado, what is the company we are critiquing today?
[00:38:17] Anand: I wanted to go, uh, I've been, I'm in B2B, so I wanted to go kind of opposite of that. So I picked a B2C company, which is remarkable. Uh, a product that I use and I enjoy using. So I, I figured, let's go with remarkable.
[00:38:28] Elle: I love it. Okay, so for anyone following me on, uh, we're looking@remarkable.com. So tell us what do they do? Who are they?
[00:38:37] Anand: So they are a digital kind of notebook. the reason why I use them is when I used to take notes, I used to have like five different notebooks I'd go through every, you know, a couple of months and it was getting too much to handle. And so. This is a digital version of having a notebook. And so it just made things a lot easier and cleaner to manage.
I don't know exactly who they, you know, market to, to me it feels like it's probably like working professionals, probably more [00:39:00] tech forward, working professionals looking at their website. It feels like very, like techy type of people by the way the visuals are and the way that they're dressed, et cetera.
But, um, yeah, I would say like working, working professionals and tech forward, working professionals.
[00:39:14] Elle: Got it. Okay. And now walk us through their messaging. What are you seeing, you know, I guess above the fold on their website that's popping out at you?
[00:39:21] Anand: Yeah. So for me this was interesting 'cause again, coming in the B2B world, we always talk about like the high level value. But you see in B2C where they're like, they're usually kinda sometimes like you see with Apple highlight like the recent innovation or recent product that they launch, which it seems like this is what Remarkable is doing with their pro move product.
Um. The messaging felt kind of weird to me. Like be there with like, the big thing that stands out, which, you know, if you don't really have too much, uh, context on remarkable, it may not make a lot of sense, but like, once you see the image and stuff, you realize it's like a, a more portable notebook that you can take places with you.
Um, which for me as a [00:40:00] buyer probably isn't as relevant. I, I work from home. I sit in my desk almost every day, right? So, like, this product specifically is not relevant for me, but obviously that's something that's. The new thing that they're pushing.
[00:40:11] Elle: It does. I am getting very, um, apple inspired vibes,
[00:40:17] Anand: Yeah.
[00:40:18] Elle: Not necessarily from, obviously Apple's very like sleek. They have a very distinct aesthetic. Not, not from that perspective, but exactly to your point. Like the, um, just the way that they are. it looks like advertising the new product. They have a watch the event.
[00:40:35] Anand: Yeah.
But, but even that, I, I, that even, like at first, like, I mean I wor I, I work for Gold Cast, which does a lot of virtual events and we, cus like, so I, I kind of got what they meant by that. But like there was nothing around that at context. So there was a launch event that
they announced this thing in.
Right. So that was a bit confusing to me at first.
[00:40:53] Elle: That's exactly what I was gonna say. I was frankly confused when I first pulled up their website. I'm like, [00:41:00] okay, something about notes. But like, it was, it just, it kind of like, I didn't really, like, I thought it was an app, to be honest. Like, I'm like, uh, I didn't realize until like I'd continued to scroll.
I'm like, oh, it's like an actual
[00:41:12] Anand: Yeah. and and this is like
what, what, what's interesting there is like, I have a remarkable, so my context is different coming to this
page, right? Versus yours, right? So like, um, like I know what they do generally. So I knew, okay, this is a different version, a different model of a digital dope notebook, but you had less context, so you took it as an app, right?
[00:41:33] Elle: I, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what are you loving about their messaging? What's working?
[00:41:39] Anand: Um, so a couple things that I do do, like, like it's probably less messaging, more visuals. Like if you scroll down a little bit after the, after the hero, like they have really great, like, visuals of the product, right? Like people would have their notes written down. And so, like, to me, this is just like, makes it more real.
Like this is what you do with this product, right? Kind of thing. Um, [00:42:00] and as again, maybe the context is different, but as someone that uses this every day, I, I, I could. I can relate to this. Um, but there was a couple of things that stood out to me. One is like, social proof is like a big thing in any product marketing or product kind of whether B2C or B2B, but like in B2C, like I think it is probably more relevant to have like these publications that really champion your, like your.
Product right out in the world. Right? Um, and they have really great quotes from it, so it helps build that trust. It's less about wearing B2B, it's like these logos
use us and B2C is like, these publications who know what they're talking about are saying incredible things about our solution. Right? Um, and so that felt like it was positive, but the part that really, I think.
There's just one line that really stood out to me. It says everything you love about paper in a digital notebook. because to me it feels like the, a lot of people that do end up going, like, especially new customers, they take notes, they take, they write down notes, they like [00:43:00] writing down notes. They don't want to type it out on their computer, et cetera.
Right? And so. Like if I, when, even when I asked, I remember a few years ago, I used to tell my wife, why don't you just like, write your notes on a, on, on your computer, type it up. And she's like, no, I like to write it so I can remember things. Right. Um, and so this, so this line of everything you love about paper in a ni digital notebook, it, it gives you that sense of people who are kind of like on the fence of whether they should move to something digital.
Like they still get all the value and all the same kind of benefits of writing it down, but now it's just digitized, right? It just makes it a little bit better.
[00:43:33] Elle: Yeah. what I, um, what's standing out to me and this is just per the language that they used, it's immediately tapping into the emotion of joy. Um, so that's what's I, I think's working really well. Their messaging is that it's joyful and it's, um, causing me to make that association with their product, like, oh, this is going to be a joyful product experience.
so [00:44:00] kudos there. What do you think the PMM could have done differently?
[00:44:04] Anand: Yeah, I mean obviously we talked a little bit about like the hero and like it's very product centric. So does it, is it relevant to everyone? The event stuff? Um, but there was two things that stood out to me. Like right after the hero, they have this, I noticed this buyer's guide thing. Um, it's like clicked on that.
And it felt kind of fell short to me. Like, to me it felt like a really great opportunity, especially if they have multiple products, to really help the buyer understand like, which product is the right one for them.
Um, and I don't think it really hit that in terms of like, I was trying, like there's places that you can click on things, but it doesn't change anything.
So I felt like that kind of fell short in terms of what my expectations were for that. but the other one big thing, like um, was two things, but kind of connected. they have this whole section below of like connect subscription, right? So they have some type of subscription that you can add on. I didn't really get a clear sense of like what that means necessarily.
Like what is that? What is [00:45:00] connect, what am they getting
out of it? And related to that, the big question I have, and I, I'm, I'm a customer, I use it, I still haven't gone to figure out if this is possible, but the thing I really wanna see is like I write these notes, it somehow digitizes them and makes 'em searchable.
Right? Like, that would be like really powerful to me,
[00:45:17] Elle: Wait, that I just assumed that that would be part of it. What, like,
[00:45:21] Anand: Yeah, well there probably is a way, I dunno if it's part of this whole Connect subscription or if I, I do, I know when I first started using this thing a few years ago, that was not possible. Like, you can send the digitized version, like PDFs to yourself, but it doesn't like change your writing into, to, to text where it could search across it.
Right. So maybe it does it
now, but like that is very important. That, and I, and I, and I, and I, I feel like they're missing the opportunity to like.
Talk about that. Right. Especially 'cause they talk so much about like, organization and managing things and finding ways to like, keep things in order. Like it doesn't necessarily touch on the, the idea of taking handwriting and digitizing it into [00:46:00] like, you know, um, in a
[00:46:02] Elle: Just.
[00:46:02] Anand: Searchable.
[00:46:03] Elle: Right. Yeah.
That could be a, a power feature that they could tap into. and whether they have that feature or not, you know, it sounds like they could either bubble it up or maybe, hey, add it to the roadmap. okay. We might be kind of getting into this conversation already, but how would you iterate on this, um, from a messaging storytelling standpoint or like, maybe what are some creative ideas that you have for the PMM?
[00:46:28] Anand: Yeah, I mean, I think obviously that one I just mentioned, like just making sure, like what are some of the. The clear, not even roadblocks, but features that people would have expect from this. Right. To your point, you said you expected to already be part of that. Right. Um, and so you would potentially purchase this thing and then realize after the fact that you can't actually do that.
Right. Uh, or you, maybe you can, it's just not easy to figure out. So like, just making sure those things are more clear and upfront. I don't know. I mean, I think like, to me. again, I, I do enjoy like the [00:47:00] visuals and how they try to bring it more to life.
Um,
[00:47:03] Elle: Yeah.
[00:47:03] Anand: I, I think where they could really probably, um. put a little bit more emphasis on is like this whole idea that I already said of like, everything you love about paper in a digital book. Like, again, to me that feels like probably the largest roadblock to people buying. Like they love the, the, the, the process and the experience of writing on paper.
Right? Um, and this one sentence does a good job of like, you know, starting that conversation. But can they, can they expand on that moral right? That, that's where I would probably focus.
[00:47:34] Elle: I, I was gonna say the same thing, and I think they've done a really good job with like, sparking some of that joy and to, to double down on that. And I don't, you know, typically I say sell the pain. I don't know if I would do that here. I think this is an exception where I wouldn't sell the pain and I would sell the joy, and this is more like, less less of feedback for product marketing.
So maybe I'm not [00:48:00] super qualified to give this feedback, but like some of the images that they have with the customers, like they're a little. Flat, it kind of doesn't match the joy that I would expect to have. They do, like they, they would, you know, it would show what you can do and that's really cool.
But I think maybe there's something there around storytelling with the joy of everything you love about paper, but like in digital. So I'd love to see more of that. It would be really fun to do. A campaign around that. Um, I'm sure there's, if we could get our hands on some of their customer data, I'm Sure. we'd have lots of ideas
[00:48:33] Anand: Sure. Yeah. But, but even talking about your idea of like. Pain. Right. And you, you, you, you're obviously saying maybe not leaning to the pain part, but the thing that got me to finally make the purchase is the fact that I had all these notebooks that were trying to pile up. And I am one of those weird people, but I don't like to throw away those notebooks.
Right. Because, not, not that I'm ever gonna go look at them again. But you, you assume maybe you do. Right? And so like, is
there
something them,
tug on?
[00:48:59] Elle: [00:49:00] I have them from the last 15 years
and it's like, I can't throw 'em away. 'cause they're like, what if there's something in there that like, is like a nugget of information. No, I think you're right. But, but you could do that in like a still a joyful way. not in the paints. Uh, Yeah.
would love to just. Brainstorm with their, with their marketing team on that.
[00:49:19] Anand: Okay.
[00:49:21] Elle: okay. So, thank you so much for walking us through such a fun critique and shout out to any remarkable pmms out there. We really like where you're going with the emotion and would love to see more. Okay. so Enon, so one thing that I like to make time for is a moment of gratitude, um, on this podcast because in product marketing we never get anywhere alone.
We're always. Building on each other and learning from each other. So first and foremost, thank you for your time today and I know it was a lot of work to prep for this session and, um, share your expertise. So just wanna wrap up and say thank you for everything that you've done for us.
[00:49:58] Anand: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for [00:50:00] having me all. I, I really appreciate it. It's been, it's been a fun conversation.
[00:50:02] Elle: Yeah, and just a quick shout out. Just put some good kudos out in the world. Turning it over to you. Who are some pmms that you've worked hand in hand with who have made an impact on your career and molded you into the awesome PMM that you are today?
[00:50:19] Anand: Yeah, so I, I have a couple people I'll, I'll quickly give shout outs to. So first it was like, maybe not as much pm m but like my managers, right? So Melissa Palle, when I joined Paysafe, uh, she was the first time I realized like managers, like managers play important role in your career development. Like, I had not really had great managers prior to that, and like, I got to see it firsthand.
How important a good manager is to your growth as an individual. So ever since then, like that's been a big factor in my decisions to when I'm looking for new jobs. Uh, and then similarly, when I was at Team Snap. Uh, Desiree Jewel joined our team as to lead our marketing team, and she had a product marketing background, but she was taking a more [00:51:00] expansive head of marketing role at that point.
But the way that she just had like, the ability to connect with people and really have empathy for everyone on the team, like the human side of managing, like, I, I really appreciate that. I try to replicate that. I'm not as good at it as, as she is, but like that's something that I've always appreciated.
And then on the product marketing side, like I've worked with some great product marketers, but I've also worked for smaller organizations, so there wasn't as many of us.
Right. Um, and so I've, I've had to tap tap into other people. And so I've been fortunate enough to work with some. Some folks you, you know, you've probably heard of, like Julian Sage, jam Khan, uh, Daniel Cooperman, um, of like, they've just been so willing to like, have conversations and chat and like, hear ideas and kind of bounce things back and forth.
Like they, like these are well-known people. They, you know, they have busy things going on in their lives, working for, you know, great brands. But the fact that they were so open to have conversations and not just once, but like we've continued to have like a strong relationship. Um, I'm always thankful for that because it allows you to feel like you're not [00:52:00] alone in this thing and you're, you're, you're talking to other people and getting validation and feedback and continuing to like, feel good about the work you're doing.
'cause you know, other people will kind of see, see, you know, bid in your place and see, see what you're going through.
[00:52:11] Elle: I love that about product marketing. It feels like for the most part, everybody in our community is so willing to share feedback and mentor. Yeah. And I couldn't, I couldn't feel more similar to you in terms of having you get that one experience of an amazing manager. And same. I will not like that is my make or break decision on any career, anywhere I go work.
If the manager isn't amazing, it's a, it's a pass.
[00:52:40] Anand: Yep. A hundred percent.
[00:52:41] Elle: Okay. I promise. This is my last question for you. Where else can we access your expertise? Is it best to find you on LinkedIn?
[00:52:47] Anand: Yeah. LinkedIn's probably the best place I, I, I'm gonna, I'm on Twitter slash x, but like. I don't talk about marketing there as much anymore, so, um, it's, I'm not on there as much, so LinkedIn is definitely the best place to catch me.
[00:52:59] Elle: [00:53:00] Awesome. Oh, well again, thank you so much anon. This has been a really fun conversation.
[00:53:04] Anand: Yeah. Thanks Al. I really appreciate you having me.
[00:53:06] Elle: Uh, and thank you PMM listeners for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
