Build PMM from the ground-up like a Lead PMM
IOkay, PMMs. This one is for anyone who has ever walked into a company and heard, “We don’t really have product marketing here.”
It sounds like a nightmare. It’s also one of the biggest opportunities in your career.
Matt Agnew has spent 15 years as a B2B SaaS product marketer across startups and enterprise organizations. Most recently, he was hired into a very well-established enterprise SaaS company to build product marketing from the ground up. The ratio he walked into? Almost 100 product managers, one product marketing manager, and an intern punching well above her weight class.
Matt breaks down how he built the function, how he earned trust fast, and how he made the case for headcount.
Product Marketing Without The Name
The first thing Matt realized was that product marketing was already happening. It just wasn’t happening in the right places or by the right people.
Teams were building sales decks full of core industry positioning without knowing that’s what they were doing. His audit found nine different teams doing nine different things, with some overlap. None of it was malicious. Everyone wanted to do a good job and talk about the product. They simply didn’t know there was a better way.
Matt’s analogy is a road trip without a map. You’ll get there and probably have a lovely time, but it takes longer, the ride is bumpier, and not everyone arrives at the same destination. In a company, that means inconsistent stories about your product out in the market.
Start By Listening, Not Doing
Matt’s brief was wide open: look around, tell us what you want to do, then go do it.
So he booked meetings with everyone. He went high and low in the org chart, from VPs and C-level leaders to people deep in the work. About 75% of the people he met had been at the company for more than 13 years, so he leaned on curiosity rather than assumptions.
While listening, he “peppered in” his experience: what he’d added to a process elsewhere, or how presenting something slightly differently helped sales reps. It was credibility-building without ever saying “trust me.” Every conversation delivered value, which is why stakeholders quickly started pulling him into projects.
He also fought the urge to dive into tactical work. He saw decks and webcasts he wanted to improve, but jumping in would have recreated the same reactive pattern the company already had. Instead, he took notes, grouped what he heard into themes, and took the most common problems back to leadership with a proposed strategy. Many of those problems weren’t even on leadership’s radar.
What Stakeholders Wanted Versus What PMM Needed
Many people told Matt that product marketing had been underserved. Rather than argue, he agreed and showed them what he’d seen: good work was happening, but it was reactive and scattered across departments.
His pitch to stakeholders was practical. You don’t want to be doing positioning and messaging; you’re only doing it because nobody else was. Imagine if I did the research, customer interviews and technical validation first, so your deck or webcast starts from a much better place.
Early Wins: Faster Enablement And Proactive PMM
One early win came from a new concept the alliances team wanted to train sales on. Sales enablement estimated they could start in a month and a half, with training landing in about three months.
Matt had already built his own version. His starting framework for any new concept or product is three things:
How to get salespeople excited.
How to help them quickly get the client excited.
What to do next.
He also insisted the concept be explainable in 30 seconds, internally and externally. Once sales enablement saw it, they said they could start the following month, putting it in front of sellers roughly two months sooner.
Matt also shifted PMM from a last-minute “catch our mistakes” role to a proactive one. His team built AI skills that act like a product-minded reviewer, so designers could check video and image concepts earlier and avoid costly rework, wasted tokens and two-week deadline slips.
Proving Value And Earning Champions
Matt was hired into a senior role, and the VP in his final interview told him, “You’re here to teach us something.” He admits it felt scary at times, then he reminded himself that he did know what he was talking about.
A turning point came when he was quietly sitting on an email thread that showed teams running ahead without a plan. About 20 minutes later, a senior leader he’d met the week before pulled him in and said Matt should be leading it. That only happened because Matt had pitched his value early.
Another sign of trust: the “no news is good news” phase. Instead of ideas being ripped up, senior leaders started saying, “Makes sense. Here are two things that will help you succeed with it.”
The Playbook For Building PMM From The Ground Up
When I asked Matt to coach a PMM in the same situation, a clear playbook came out.
1. Make friends, not just colleagues. Get allies on key teams. Matt’s connection with someone on the web team took certain deliveries from two weeks to two hours.
2. Learn to play the game. Matt had a pitch he loved, so he sat on it for three months while he learned the organization.. When the moment came, he had six allies who had each contributed to the idea, so it landed with the senior team instead of getting shot down.
3. Present to executives like it’s the first time. Executives are busy and often forget the details between meetings. Go back to the very beginning every time, then tie it to benefits.
4. Tie everything to goals. Link work to business goals like revenue, and to the personal goals of stakeholders, such as growing a region or lifting a specific product. Every task should answer: which major goal does this support?
5. Be confident. You were hired for a reason.
Messaging Critique: REI Co-op
For the messaging critique, Matt picked REI Co-op. As a self-described “hobby hopper” who researches everything before buying, he found REI’s expert content while looking up inflatable versus hard-shell kayaks. He read the whole article before realising he was on rei.com.
What REI does well is its blogging strategy: it presents itself as an expert, offers genuinely helpful guidance, and knows when not to sell. That earns instant trust. Matt says learning when not to sell is almost as important as learning how to sell.
What he’d change is how REI thinks about its audience. Someone researching kayaks may also be interested in bikes, skis or other gear. Rather than retargeting with the same kayak again and again, REI could use adjacent offerings to meet hobby hoppers where their curiosity goes next.
Building PMM from scratch isn’t about running a perfect playbook on day one. It’s about making friends, listening, learning how your organisation works, tying everything to goals that matter, and showing value in small and big ways, until the company can’t imagine working without you.
LINKS
Messaging Critique (REI Co-op): https://www.rei.com/
Connect with Andrew:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-agnew-product-marketing/
Connect with Elle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/
Website: https://www.productmarketingadventures.com/
Dusted: https://dusted.io/
-
[00:00:00] Elle: it is my pleasure to welcome Matt Agnew to the show. Matt has spent 15 years as a B2B SaaS product marketer working in a mix of startups and enterprise organizations. Most recently, he was tasked with building product marketing from the ground up and is leading and growing the PMM function at an enterprise SaaS company.
[00:00:18] And today, he's sharing how he did it, the lessons he has learned, and his tips both for PMMs and PMM leaders who are currently in this scenario. Matt, it is amazing to have you on the show
[00:00:29] Matthew: Hi, Elle. I'm so excited to be here. I know it's sounds nerdy, but I do love talking me some product marketing, so
[00:00:36] Elle: Yes. Let's get into it. Uh, okay. So I want to start with the case study for how you grew, and are currently growing, the product marketing function inside a super, very well-established, um, company where product marketing may have been largely underserved. So tell me more about what was going on when you [00:01:00] first encountered this in your career.
[00:01:02] Matthew: Yeah. So first off, you know, if you look on the internet, it'll tell you that you should have one product marketing manager for every three to five product managers. So at this particular company, when I came in, there was essentially between, you know, almost 100 product managers, so a very large company, and one product marketing manager.
[00:01:25] We-- There also was, there also was an intern who was really punching above her, her weight class and doing an, an amazing job. But what I soon realized was is that this was a company where people have been there for a long time. People had a very strong idea of how things should work, and somehow, uh, I guess a lot of them haven't really heard of the traditional aspects of product marketing.
[00:01:45] So what I realized was there was product marketing happening, just not in the right places and by the right people
[00:01:52] Elle: So what were some of the big symptoms that you were finding as you got started and you realized, like, "Okay, we really [00:02:00] need a PM- a true PMM function"? some things that I have seen, um, in my personal career and then, and also thinking through some of the guests that I've had on the show in the past, is maybe, maybe running into folks internally who don't really understand what product marketing is, or, um, you know, maybe they were really surprised to find something, that should be common knowledge, but, you know, the r- the org hasn't been operating that way.
[00:02:24] So h- tell me about that moment when you realized, like, "Okay, we need a totally different approach. We need a formal PMM function."
[00:02:31] Matthew: Well, as I mentioned, you know, people were doing product marketing and they didn't know they were doing product marketing. So I would have a meeting where people would show me a deck that they created for sales that was ready to go. It was talked about at the last SKO, and here we are. And I looked at it and I was like, "This is core industry positioning about our core product, about our company."
[00:02:54] And when I kind of dove into it, I realized that, you know, not everyone who should have looked at it really looked at [00:03:00] it, and the person looking, working on it did a great job. But again, you have to kind of take that s- those steps back and say, you know, "Did we do ev- did we review everything we should be doing with it?"
[00:03:10] You know, following what someone who's been doing this for a while would do. So it wasn't that it was bad, it just was that it was happening at so many different places without that name to it. And then what really was happening was everybody was diving right in. I use the analogy that it was like people were going on a road trip without a map or a plan.
[00:03:30] And they get there, you know, they, they get there and they'd have a wonderful time, but it definitely took a lot longer and, you know, definitely could have been a smoother ride
[00:03:39] Elle: Yeah. Well, and what else happens when you have, um, very, I'll say, um, assertive, um, folks internally who go forth and do something like create a deck on their own, which has happened, I think probably at every single SaaS company in the history of SaaS companies, [00:04:00] and who were not in PMM. Um, and what sometimes what happens, or most very often what happens actually, is you don't have everybody in the company speaking the same language.
[00:04:11] They're not telling the same story. So you have that inconsistency now about your product out in the market, that may actually change where the des- what the destination looks like for some folks. So maybe not everybody in the company goes f- like to use your analogy, not everybody ar- may, might arrive at the right destination.
[00:04:32] Matthew: same time, you
[00:04:33] Elle: Oh, right. Oh, yeah,
[00:04:34] Matthew: and that's what was kinda happening. You know, my audit, there were nine different teams that were basically doing nine different things, and sometimes there was some overlap, but... And, and this is, people were kinda surprised when I mentioned this, but then they would kinda think for a second and say, "Oh yeah, you're right."
[00:04:51] And so it, it was just one of those things where people were one... And it was, none of it was done with any sort of malintent. It [00:05:00] was all everybody wanted to do a good job. Everybody wanted to talk about the product. It was just a symptom of we don't know what we don't know, and we don't know that there's a better way to do this
[00:05:10] Elle: Okay, so you walk into this super well-established company. There's no PMM function. Where do you even get started to create one?
[00:05:18] Matthew: Yeah. And it was funny because my ask was very, very open. It was, "We know that this is an underserved industry. We don't necessarily know how to fix it. We want you to look around, give us some suggestions, tell us what you wanna do, and then go do it." And it was, you know, and I actually love that approach.
[00:05:37] It's, you know, I'm a creative person in my trade. I have a degree in creative nonfiction writing, which is a weird thing. But I do like the idea of kind of taking a step back and tackling things from that approach. And, and so the first thing I did was I just booked meetings with everybody, and people were surprised when I was doing this.
[00:05:54] Like, people were like, "How did my name come across, you know, your plate?" And I was like, "I looked at the org chart and thought I should talk [00:06:00] to this person." I did. And then just 'cause people hadn't made those connections with what product marketing should be doing, and I was like, "You know, we should be probably talking weekly.
[00:06:08] We should be talking daily. We should be talking bimonthly." And so I just went out and spoke to everybody, and while I was listening, I al- I was slightly just peppering in my experience, and it was, you know, what I've done in the past is I added this to things, or the way you're doing this, if you actually present it slightly around, I find that sales reps do a little bit better.
[00:06:30] So I was just kind of peppering in those little things, and then it kind of just got around where it's like, "Hey, maybe we should include Matt i- in, in some projects and some things." So I started getting involved in more things and, and then again, I'm not one to, you know, take an existing process and just do that existing process.
[00:06:50] I presented what I was doing. I presented the benefit every time, and that's just... And that ended up just kind of slowly, slowly working until I became incredibly busy and people were just constantly [00:07:00] involving the team in things a- as we should have. And it worked out really well, actually a lot faster than I had hoped
[00:07:06] Elle: I love that, and I just need to call out something that you did. It's a small strategy that you applied, but I think it's, was really beneficial in earning credibility, right? You mentioned peppering in some of those, your experiences, right? You're kind of alluding to your credibility. Now, you're not saying this outright, but it's another way of communicating to your stakeholders of, "This is why you should trust me.
[00:07:31] I have this experience, and this is what I have seen to work really well." and so you kind of, you state what, how you would do something different, and then you pepper in the, the proof. You know, "And here's how I know this for sure, because I've done it." Um, but you didn't have to, you didn't say those words, obviously.
[00:07:46] want, just reiterating for our listeners why I think the way that you went about this was so effective, was also because in every conversation, yes, you were listening, and that is absolutely, you know, what you should do, but you were also [00:08:00] providing value. And I think that's why that happened so fast for you, because people realized, "This guy's here to listen to me, and he's here to make my life better."
[00:08:10] Matthew: Yeah. And another thing was I fought the urge to just dive right in and start doing things. And that was actually one of the most challenging things, 'cause I would see a deck and have ideas of when I do it, I would see people planning a, a webcast and wanna give feedback, and I just, you know, so many times
[00:08:27] Elle: Oh
[00:08:27] Matthew: just...
[00:08:27] Quite guess it was I didn't wanna get too tactical right away because I, I wanted to really make sure I understood everything and 'cause it was a big company that's been around for a long time and, you know, I'm still, I s- it took me a long, long time to learn things, still learning. And it, it just, it was such a, it was just such an, an interesting thing of let's not jump right in and do work.
[00:08:48] Let's not jump right in and be tactical 'cause I, I really wanted to make sure that I knew what the company needed. I knew they needed a strategic approach to this. They needed pro- people to be more proactive, [00:09:00] and I was like, if I just jump in, it's gonna be the, the same thing they had
[00:09:03] Elle: Yes. A- and a, a distraction to you, right? From actually bui- being, uh, getting a chance to build your strategy. So that's smart. Um, and I know the urge you're describing. Like, I just need to go and do it.
[00:09:19] Matthew: We love to help, right?
[00:09:20] That's, that's what product marketers are. Like, we just love seeing a something and saying, "Here I am," you know?
[00:09:26] Elle: Yes. Yes, absolutely. quick follow-up about the stakeholders that you met, that you met with. Did you have any, like, strategy behind who you were gonna meet with? You mentioned an org chart. Um, is there anyone specific that you, um, obviously not naming names, but, like, functions within the org that you realized you really needed to meet with those individuals?
[00:09:48] Matthew: I went high and low. And I, you know, like I went low, I just people that... 'Cause this was, again, a very interesting company where there was a lot of people, I would say a good 75% of the people [00:10:00] I met with were there for more than 13 years. And so I, I did not shy away, and I think this was why some people were surprised, I just booked meetings with VPs and, and C-level people and just threw myself in there.
[00:10:12] I remember someone kinda coming back to me and being like, "You know what? I'm their assistant. You're supposed to come through me." And I was like, "Oh, so th- well, now I know, but can I still
[00:10:18] meet with them?" And, and so yeah, I just did it. And like I said, I would, you know, it's being-- I wanted them to meet me and see that I was excited to do this and see that I wanted to hear what their problems were, and I had some experience doing this and some success doing it, and that was just really the thought.
[00:10:36] And, you know, if, you know, I took good notes when I did it, and then I, I really made sure to apply everything. And, and really what I wanted to do is when I talked to everybody, I created themes that I heard. And when the, whatever came up the most, this is kinda what I went back to, to my leadership and said, "You know, these are the things that are coming up most often.
[00:10:53] I- here's a strategy I, I really think that we should take to tackle this." 'Cause I, you know, when I met with them, [00:11:00] the, I heard a lot of things that they didn't even know about, right? You know, there, there was a lot of problems that they weren't even aware of. A- and, and I heard a lot of the same things, then applied that to, okay, this should probably be something we tackle first
[00:11:11] Elle: I love that. So good. And then when you were meeting with people, I'm curious, how did you distinguish between this is what people wanted PMM to do versus what you feel like product marketing actually needed to do, and was there anything surprising between those two?
[00:11:29] Matthew: Yeah. I was very honest and, and... 'cause a lot of-- When I first started meeting people, a lot of people would say, "You know, the product marketing is probably not really traditional here. You know, it's maybe been a little underserved, hasn't gotten the love it needed." And the more I heard that, I realized, you know, when I go into meetings, I'm gonna say I understand that right away and say, "I get that.
[00:11:49] That's what they're doing. My plan is that, you know, we really need to grow it." And, you know, 'cause there was-- That's the thing, there was good product marketing work happening. There really was. It ju- it was [00:12:00] very reactive, and it-- there was doing good, and I don't think people realized. And so I just told people, I was like, "You know, this is product marketing.
[00:12:07] I think this is what we're doing right now. Like, this from here to here is what's getting done. This is good. You know, like it's very good right here, but there's just so many other things here that either the company's not doing at all or that is happening in other departments." And what I would say to people is like, "You know, you don't wanna do positioning.
[00:12:26] You don't wanna do messaging. That's not your job. You're just doing it because nobody else did." And I said, "Imagine if I gave that to you, and then how much better would your deck have been or would your, you know, this, this webcast would have been if I did this first and you didn't have to spend the time doing the research and the client interviews and the, the technical validation and like, I'm gonna do all that for you."
[00:12:46] Elle: I love the way that you described that, it's in that, and so I'm just noticing a theme about you and how you, um, manage your stakeholders. You're reiterating the value that you are delivering, that you're bringing [00:13:00] to the table, You're doing it a very strategic way.
[00:13:02] It's not in, like, a, you know, "This is why you should trust me." It's even the way that you described it of, "Imagine if I did all this for you," the this, the that, the this, the that, and then letting your strengths shine. Um, so I just ha- I just com- I'm commending you on that 'cause I think that was a very smart way to manage stakeholders.
[00:13:24] okay, so here you are. You're in this new org, established, um, uh, company, but not an established product marketing function. You're finding the gaps. You're going high and low. what actually changed once you started to put that foundation into place?
[00:13:41] Matthew: So we, there was a sales enabl- enablement team. So, you know, normally that's under product marketing, but there was a, a quite large sales enablement team, and there was something that our alliances team wanted to get out that they thought was this really valuable new concept, uh, and they wanted to have, you know, train the sales team on it.
[00:13:57] And before I had kind of [00:14:00] shown my approach, really shown, you know, how I wanted to do this, I actually had it ready, like it was done. I spent time on it, but I hadn't shown the, the, the sales enablement team. And so they had said, they said, "We could probably start this, um, in a month and a half, and then so...
[00:14:14] and that means we'll probably get the training out in about three months." This is what they said. So I said, "Cool. Let me show you something." So I showed him my, what I had come up with, and I generally have three things that I like to, that I, I start with when there's a new concept or a new product. It's, one, it's how to get the salespeople excited.
[00:14:32] Uh, two, it's how to get the client excited, so telling them how to quickly get their prospect or their client excited. And then three, what to do next. I, I don't really like to go a lot further than that because, you know, salespeople wanna count their money, and they wanna go out and do their own, you know, just get to work.
[00:14:49] And so if you go too far, they lose it. But, so I had showed them this, this presentation that I had made where I had built this concept, 'cause... So when the concept was explained to me, and this was [00:15:00] again, one of the fir- was something that people were surprised about. I, I've been in tech for, for 15 years. I, you know, I, I understand it quite well.
[00:15:08] When it was explained to me, I stopped and I said, it took me 10 minutes to say, "Oh, okay, I get it," you know, when, when the team was explaining it to me. And I said, "I, I get it now. I, uh... It's great. I do think we should do that, but we need to make that 30 seconds or, or there's no point doing this." And originally, I had seen what they would do in the past.
[00:15:27] What they would've done is create these giant PowerPoints and this huge go-to-market plan and all these jumping right in and start writing things. And that's why I said, "Let's explain it in 30 seconds," uh, to both internal and external. So I did that, and then so when I went to the sales enablement person, instead of it being, "We could probably be done with this in three to four months," he said, "We could start it next month."
[00:15:50] So it was essentially, it was after he had saw my work, it was essentially going to be in the hands of the salespeople about two months faster than it would've been. [00:16:00] Because again, he would've had to spend the time kinda looking at it and doing it. So, so that was one. And then, uh, another thing with the being more, being more, um, proactive than reactive, the way people had kind of thought of product marketing was this catch-all, that if I make a, like a technical mistake or a product mistake, the product marketing is gonna catch it.
[00:16:20] And that was great, and then, and then it was working. But what I realized was that we were... Sometimes you would have to change something that would be quite expensive. So I also started putting in some proactive approaches with AI, where we would kinda, we would create skills that would basically be acting as an, an IT person or, you know, a product-minded person that could get some of these things in.
[00:16:42] So when the designers were building something, if they were, you know, creating a video or creating an image, they now knew, had a better idea of what one to create. So in the past, it would've been like, "Oh, I made a mistake. That video doesn't fit in here, so I have to go back, so my deadline is gonna get pushed two [00:17:00] weeks.
[00:17:00] And all of those tokens I used to, you know, either buy stock footage or create it with AI, I, I-- that got ruined, and now I gotta do it again." So there was also just a, a small amount, but some tangible money and time savings I, I could point to as well. And then there was, like, you know, client benefits as well.
[00:17:18] But I-- you know, we all want those, so I like to try to focus on some of the, the other things that I find important too.
[00:17:24] Elle: Wow. Okay, so a lot of your focus with establishing this PMM function was, of course, obviously being a good listener and filling in the gaps. But once it becomes, um, once you get to that execution phase of, of building and actually doing the good PMM work, it's around having that, I would say, shared i- and, like, adynamo effect of a, of excitement for not product marketing necessarily, but it's cool that it comes from product marketing, um, but for basically your narrative and what your product can do for the world.
[00:17:58] And I love [00:18:00] that on top of that, you've sprinkled in, um, some financial results as well. Um, so it sounds like ultimately your PMM function as you have been building and probably are continue to, continuing to build it because it's, it doesn't, it takes time, and it's an always on activity. Um, but it sounds like y- the big early wins were centered on stakeholder alignment, which is probably the biggest, most important part of establishing the PMM org, um, and then filling in, and starting to fill in the gaps, and I'm sure you probably had some kind of prioritization as you went along doing that.
[00:18:43] And then getting people jazzed up and excited and, um, and I'm kind of parroting back what I think I heard you say, there was a lot of, um, uh, proving your value along the way in the little ways and big ways,
[00:18:56] Matthew: We all have to do that. And, and again, it was, it was a senior [00:19:00] role I, I was hired for, and I, I knew that. And, you know, when I was interviewed by one of the VPs for my, my final interview, and one of the things he said that really stuck with me was, it's, you know, "You're here to teach us something." And it was so, it's like, you know, I have to come here and, and show that, yeah.
[00:19:15] And I... And you know, we all have those moments where we think, oh, you know, I remember saying to my wife, it's like I would start to wonder, "Well, this is kind of scary, you know, what I'm doing here. I'm jumping into this, this big existing company that's doing well financially, and there's all these people doing stuff."
[00:19:28] And then I, you know, would start to be like, "Wait a minute, I actually do know what I'm talking about." And it was, and it was good. And I was like, "Yeah, well, I can provide value and I, and I can do that." And when I, I got over that, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show 'em." And, and it worked
[00:19:41] Elle: I love that. Did you have, like, a su- any super proud moment during, you know, I guess some of this, from when you first started till now?
[00:19:49] Matthew: I think because I knew I had to fight to have... I didn't wanna be r- the team to be reactive anymore, and that was the, that's what it was. Like, that was kind of policy was, you know, at the last [00:20:00] second, let's ask PM what, what they think. And that, that really, that was the, the role. And so I was like, "I need to be proactive."
[00:20:06] And I was like, "It's gonna take long." But actually, quite early, there was an email thread that I was kind of, uh, in, like, the bottom of, and I was, and I was like, "Ugh," I and it was just a, you know, example of people jumping ahead and, you know, that, that story of, of, uh, you know, running without walking and going on the ro- the trip without a map.
[00:20:26] And I just was... And then about 20 minutes later, a senior, a person on the, uh, the senior leadership team that I had met the week before said, said, "Let's stop this. I want, um, here's Matt," and brought me in on the, the email thread, even though I was already in there kinda hiding, and, like, brought me up and said, you know, "@Matt," you know, like, "I want, you know, Matt should be here.
[00:20:47] Matt should be the one kind of, kind of leading this." So it was like I did that. I got to that proactive stage so much faster, and it was 'cause like I, I had pitched my value to him. He saw that. He knew what I was able to do, and so he said, "Yeah, like, if we put [00:21:00] Matt in earlier, uh, it's gonna be better." And it, and it was great.
[00:21:03] And, and that... So that was really a nice win. And then another... Yeah. And another really good one was kind of the, I also get the, I, I, I get excited talking about, about
[00:21:13] Elle: Me too. I know. Yeah. It's good
[00:21:16] Matthew: I told people that at work, and I think that, that they saw that too. Like, I would tell people, it's like I, I'm excitable.
[00:21:21] So but, uh, and another really good one was the, you know, the whole no news is good news. You know, when I, you know, the direct senior leadership that were there for a very, very long time, you know, I, I realized they just were... It's not that they were too busy for me, 'cause I saw how they worked with other people.
[00:21:37] They were trusting me. They were, they were trusting me to get work done. And so, like, if I, you know, when I got to this point where it was just s- you know, where I would start to hear, "Makes sense to me." And I was like, "Great." You know? 'Cause I, I realized I don't have to keep selling myself. I have this right idea, and, and I was not getting a lot of, "We'll do this, this, and this with it."
[00:21:55] I was get- And I was getting, "Okay, here's what I think can do to help you be [00:22:00] successful with that." And I was like, "This is great." You know? This is such a different approach, you know, than a lot of people are used to, where you used to come up with an idea, and then somebody ripping it up or adding things, and now it was, "Good idea.
[00:22:10] Here's two pieces of advice that will help that idea be successful."
[00:22:14] Elle: and I love that you had that champion 'cause I, and I'm circling back to earlier in our conversation when you were identifying who on the org chart that you would talk to, and you said you went high and low, and I think that was smart for a number of reasons. But in that process, and also with just your personal approach and how you build relationships with your stakeholders, and you're constantly peppering in your value and then reinforcing that with proving more value later, you were able to earn that trust and to get those champions internally who are bringing you into the conversation earlier.
[00:22:49] And the sooner you can do that, it's just, it's so good for your team, and I feel like very, it's very common for product marketing leaders and, and marketing leaders of, of, um, [00:23:00] of other functions as well get stuck in the, like, um, l- like order taker, you know, kind of role, and then, and that's kind of how you get into that, like, reactive state.
[00:23:11] So I, I just ap- appreciating how you were able to do that for your team and, you know, kind of earning that trust, you know, really early on.
[00:23:19] Matthew: Yeah. Thank you. I, I, I was really proud of the team and I had... Even though, you know, the team did grow, uh, early, we had some, some internal people move over and so the team did start to grow and the, it took them a little bit, but once they kind of realized what I was, what I was aiming for, I just, we saw such a great change and we were able to do a lot with a small team
[00:23:38] Elle: I love it. Okay. I'm really appreciating this story. Um, I wanna do a little bit of quasi role playing here for a minute and take your story, turn it into a playbook, but we're gonna pretend that you're the coach and I'm the player. And let's say I'm, I'm in, like, a new, you know, I'm in a new [00:24:00] role and, or a new company.
[00:24:01] I'm, I'm tasked with establishing the product marketing function, the product marketing org. What's, what's step one? Where do I get started?
[00:24:11] Matthew: I always say, uh, one day I wanna write a book about who you should make friends with at work. It's kinda, it, it, it's who... There, there's certain groups that really will make you be more successful if you can actually make friends and not just colleagues. But like, it's-- So one of the things is, yeah, like get allies on certain teams.
[00:24:28] And there were some things that I didn't even realize, like the web team was a big one that I didn't have a lot of experience with. But like I, made allies on the web team, and I was able to change a couple processes that saved, um, that went from a two-week delivery to a, two-hour delivery sometimes because I, made this connection with someone on the web team.
[00:24:46] So, you know, someone on the IT team for things. So making those connections with the right people can really, really help. So I always say that that's one thing that, you should do
[00:24:56] Elle: Okay. So starting with, and I'm, I'm now I'm, [00:25:00] I'm hearing again the like the org chart comment and to like assessing the org chart, figuring out who I need to make friends with. So once I do that, like what's next? What's my next step?
[00:25:12] Matthew: You know why? I had a high school teacher that told-- I remember at the time thinking it was silly, but it's like one of my life m-mantras now, where t- it's, uh, learn to play the game. And he had always-- he'd said this so many times, and it was like he really pushed it into people and anybody from my hometown, they know exactly what I'm talking about.
[00:25:31] And the-- so learning to play the game for me was, what do I need to-- what's to increase the chance of this project being successful? So I, again, I'm a creative person. I had a lot of ideas in the beginning, and I had this long list of ideas, and I kept them in a notebook. And I think normally our thing is, "Okay, we have an idea.
[00:25:51] Let's polish it. Let's put it out there. Let's go, go, go, go, go." And so one thing I will say with learning to play the game was I knew I would [00:26:00] have to have some allies in certain things before I could go all the way, and I needed to learn how people like to receive information. You know, some people are visual, some people wanna, talk price first, some people want every single bit of detail, uh, you know, and some-sometimes if you present this, it might scare them, won't be able to focus on that.
[00:26:21] So I needed to learn more before I went in. So I had this one idea that I really thought was a really good idea, my boss and I-- said it was a good idea, and he kind of wanted to do it. It was like, and I worked with some members of my team. We made a presentation, and then I sat on it for three months. And so for three months, we sat on it while I, learned more about the organization.
[00:26:40] And I remember all the persons I was working with was like, kind of like, "Hey, that was fun. Is, is anything happening with that?" Like, like, you know, like, you know, that thought, "Well, did I do this for nothing?" And then I finally one day was in, in a meeting and something came up and I was like, "You know, I actually have this idea, you know, related to this."
[00:26:56] And the person was like, "Oh, that's something we're trying to do." And so [00:27:00] they were like, "Yeah, I love it. Let me help you. Let's get this up out there." So I had waited for the right time and got the right ally, and we, you know, went to the next meeting and I had that ally and they're like, "Yeah, that's great."
[00:27:11] Had another ally. You know, so went to the next meeting, had those allies. So now, you know, when I finally going to the senior team, it's like here are these six people that all think this is a great idea, all fully understand what we're doing and have contributed. Told me, you know, this should go here.
[00:27:26] We shouldn't say this. You know, how to do that. And this idea that if I would've ran to the top, you know, when I first came up with it, which everyone agreed was a good idea, would've, got slapped down because I
[00:27:35] Elle: So smart.
[00:27:37] Matthew: So yeah. So that's a big one
[00:27:39] Elle: Okay, and, um, it piggybacks really nicely on, you know, the first, the kinda first step, which was, and, and I'm totally simplifying this, but basically to, like, look at the org chart and to figure out who you need to meet with. I know, I remember you made the, um, the example as, you know, with the web team, and now I'm seeing, like, a kind of [00:28:00] step deeper into that, and that's that learn to play the game, but in doing so, you're learning about all those people, and how, and how you play with them.
[00:28:10] I can think of countless examples of my career, both when I've done it the, the right way and the wrong way, where I've gotten my allies, and I've gotten everyone to agree, and then we go to the senior leadership team and say, "Look, product marketing, sales, and product marketing, um, all agree this is what we wanna do," and then all they have to do is sign off on it and give us the budget.
[00:28:29] I've done that, and have it, have it work really nicely, and I've had it the other happen, where I don't go to those people, because I was young and naive and didn't know what I was doing. And I'd go straight to the senior leader, and they'd be like, "Go ask sales. Go ask product. Go ask someone else. Like, o- once you get their sign-off, come back to me."
[00:28:47] Matthew: Yeah, for sure. And I see that with a lot of younger people and newer people where you're so excited and they, they run into it. Another part, another thing that I would kind of add to that playbook, it's, you know, when you [00:29:00] are dealing with senior people and presenting something, be, talk-- think of it like you're, you're talking to a four-year-old for the first time.
[00:29:07] it's not that we're saying the person's dumb, it's executives are so busy and you can present them something and then say, "Come back in two weeks," they completely forgot what you're talking about, and they walk into that meeting having no idea. They just know the meeting was on their calendar, and they come in.
[00:29:19] And I see so many people that their urge is to be like, "Okay, so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this." And I, I recently had that where I, I said to somebody afterwards, I said, "Just start over. Just next time you do this, just they have no idea what you're talking about." 'Cause someone said that to me 10 years ago.
[00:29:36] And it was-- So I just said like, you know, very go back, go back to the very beginning every time, because they do not know what you're talking about, and then tie it into benefits, right? Like, it's-- So those are kind of the two bits of advice I, you know, I give to people when they're presenting something.
[00:29:50] Elle: Okay, so let's bring this back to product marketing again. I mean, we've been in the product marketing world, but more specifically about product marketing. If I'm building out a new PMM [00:30:00] org from the ground up and I've, you know, I've got my stakeholders and I've, I'm learning how to play the game, what do I do next?
[00:30:08] You know, I have all these people and they're all telling me all the things that they need. I can very easily get, and my team can very easily get super overwhelmed, especially when I'm in a scenario like you where I've got, you know, 90 PMs and it's only one, me as, you know, the lead product marketer, one other PMM, and then an intern.
[00:30:25] Like, what do I do? How do I deal with all of that scenario?
[00:30:30] Matthew: You know, obviously you wanna tie it to pers- to, uh, you know, business goals, you know, like, so whatever the, the revenue is, that's a big one. But another thing I, I did was I tied it to other people's personal goals. Like, I learned that some people had, you know, that they wanted to make the Canadian region, you know, uh, really grow, or they, they had this personal goal to get this one specific product up a, a certain number.
[00:30:55] And then so when I heard those things, and these were things that weren't necessarily as shared as, as they probably [00:31:00] should have been, but, you know, when I heard that, you know, I would say, "Okay, so there's 100 things that could be done. Which ones can tie into those and help that person?" 'Cause then that also helps with the ally, right?
[00:31:10] 'Cause then that person's like, "Oh, that's helping me." But again, that it's so that it helps push it forward. So I gotta tie it directly to goals, and if every single thing you're working on, no matter what button you're clicking, you have to say, "What major goal is this tying to?" And that's a big thing that I really, really talk to my, my team about.
[00:31:28] So, like, if we're moving an icon from here to here, is it helping the three business goals that were talked about in the SKO? Is it helping this VP's personal goal that he shared with us last week? So it's everything you do, you gotta somehow tie it up into things. It might take a little bit, but if you could tie it up, then that's great
[00:31:45] Elle: Yeah. And what I really appreciate that too, and this is something I've always done for my team members, um, and I, I haven't done it, which I think is a really good idea, especially for establishing allies with stakeholders, is also tying it back to a [00:32:00] stakeholder or, or an ally's personal goal. Um, but I've always done that for my team.
[00:32:05] If they really wanted to grow in a certain area, if that was very important to their personal career growth, then I would try to establish that as part of our priority as a team, and I would find a way to tie it back to the main goal of the-- make sure that it, it, you know, supports the goals of the business.
[00:32:21] But in my opinion, if my team member is strong, talented, I'm trying to keep them, I obviously want to, um, you know, grow their talent. I want them to grow their talent with me, so I'm gonna try to create those opportunities for them to do that. So I think that's really good, leadership quality.
[00:32:39] speaking on this, and I might be jumping, jumping ahead a little bit, but let's talk a little bit about teams. how do you consider, like let's say like you're-- I'm in my scenario where I'm at the point where I've got my s-stakeholders, I've got my allies, I'm, I've got my prioritization in place.
[00:32:56] How do I figure out what talent I need to make it happen, [00:33:00] and, um, what, what has been your approach to that?
[00:33:02] Matthew: Yeah. There, there's a few things, and again, I, I wanna tie this back into learning to play the game. I had learned from somebody that also reported to, to my boss that they had often... You know, I, I, I brought the ratio thing up a little bit. So they were o- on the design team, and they would always say, you know, "There's-- You should almost have this many designers for product marketers," and that was kind of their main argument for team growth.
[00:33:24] And, and the more I learned about my boss, I was like, I could see why that wouldn't necessarily be the something that would push him. I was like, he likes detail. He is gonna think, well, is that enough work for that person? So one of the, the first things I did was I... You know, we were using a bunch of different tools for tracking projects, and I created a, a dashboard that kind of consolidated everything, and I could very easily pull up a screen and say, "Look at this person.
[00:33:50] These are the projects that they're working on right now. These are ones that they did recently, and this is kind of an idea of capacity." And, and you know, and [00:34:00] also wh- what that's contributing to. Like, so I also could very quickly say, "This is hopefully will contribute to more leads or more sales or, you know, clarity."
[00:34:08] And so he loved that 'cause it was, it was, again, I, I, I jumped that step of him needing to explain what he wanted to see, ' cause I played the game, I, I listened, and I... So, so that was one of the first things I did was let's show team capacity and actually show what the need is going to be and show like there actually is a strong need for this.
[00:34:26] And, and then second, the one thing I struggled with was in product marketing, and I, I still don't know if I 100% know the answer to this, but How you structure the team, a lot of people do it by product. I was really kinda stuck on the idea by function or skill set. I often, when I look at any marketing team, I always look at it as sort of like a SWAT team or a round table where everybody has individual skill sets, and then whatever project comes in, we say, "Okay, that person's the best one to do that."
[00:34:57] You know, they're gonna lead and everyone else is gonna help. It's like, you [00:35:00] know, when there's a SWAT team, we need the heavy demolition guy, and then everyone else is gonna support them. And then so that was something that even though I did end up deciding to keep it by product, you know, I wanted to organize the team by product, I still kept that concept when I was making pitches for other teams.
[00:35:17] So I had somebody that, that I wanted to add to the team, and I knew that there was a gap. And so I said, "You know, this person has incredibly strong research skills. Not only is that something that's not one of our strengths right now, it's not a strength on the greater product team. You know, so like it's something that wouldn't just benefit us, it could benefit everybody.
[00:35:36] Like you don't have that person that you could say, 'Go research these things and present me the findings.'" Like w- they, at the time, they were going outside to other teams for that, and I was like, "Wouldn't that be great to have that here?" So it was that mix of skill set and then mix of that, that product need that really helped.
[00:35:52] And when I ended up going by product, I also said, "We're gonna be freeing up time for people." So again, if this is what they're [00:36:00] doing now, if I could just have more on product, then they're gonna be doing this for the product and saying, "We're not..." You know, there wasn't enough win-loss going on, the competitive intel needed to be validated and added to every product release, you know, by persona.
[00:36:15] You know, those are things like, you know, again, it gives specific things of how we do it. So you have to make that, that business case for it. You have to make sure, you know, 'cause people rightly so, uh, you know, it's, it's good to protect headcount and, you know, a lot of times sometimes people are like, "Oh, darn."
[00:36:30] But like, you know, you should. You should protect headcount. You should think about it 'cause you don't wanna get in a situation where you hire someone, and then you realize that there isn't a full role for them, and then you have to have, you know, some uncomfortable thoughts. So I'm, I take it very, very seriously, you know, when I, when I'm gonna hire someone and I know exactly what they'd be doing.
[00:36:47] I almost wanna be able to say that it's present more work than would be for someone. You know, that in my head that it's, you know, that there's 130%
[00:36:56] Elle: Yes.
[00:36:56] Matthew: know, that, that really is for them to do.
[00:36:58] Elle: that's a really smart [00:37:00] way to look at it and very thoughtful in terms of, um, securing or helping to secure anyway to the best of your ability that person's future with the company. Um, so when you're hiring, help me understand your approach to whether you lean heavy into core product marketing skills versus like industry expertise.
[00:37:23] Like what matters for you when you're looking at the needs on a team and I guess just like more broadly, what advice would you give to me if I were hiring? Um, what should I lean into?
[00:37:34] Matthew: A lot of people, the, they really do lean to that industry experience, especially with product marketing. And I've had people say like, "How could you even?" Like, "How could you possibly go into another career if you don't know it?" Uh, and I will say that if you lean very, very heavily on industry experience, you're sort of taking the easy way.
[00:37:57] And it's, it's not wrong, but it is the, the [00:38:00] super easy path. Yes, the person might come and they have that knowledge, but it's much, much harder to teach creativity. You know, it's much, much harder to teach strong presentation skills. You know, with product marketing, these are people that are gonna be presenting to the CEO
[00:38:16] and, you know,
[00:38:18] Elle: or like at conferences and to analysts. Like they are evangelists for the product, but in a way for the company
[00:38:27] Matthew: Yeah. And, and that's a lot harder to teach. I- if somebody, you know, doesn't have those speaking skills, but they know everything about the product, I almost would rather the other way around. Like, you know, say they could explain, you know, how bacon is made incredibly well, but then we're selling SaaS. I was like, "I think it'd be easier for me to teach you to talk about SaaS, you know, than it would've been if you knew everything about it, but you didn't really have that good storytelling skills."
[00:38:53] So I do really think a strong, the experience with product marketing and really those strong intangible [00:39:00] skills. You know, like it's, you've gotta... Product marketing is an interesting role. We're not hidden, you know? We're, we're not back of the house marketing, you know? We're, we're talking, we're presenting, we're arguing.
[00:39:11] We're, you know, we're, we need people to believe our way and, and we, for things to be successful, people have to want to use what we create. So there, I really ap- appreciate those tangible skills, you know, ability to argue for yourself and ability to, and also the ability to know when you lost, you know?
[00:39:30] That, that's another thing. So I, I think those are, are really important. So yeah, if I would really push people to say, if you're hiring, don't get caught up on industry skills. I know that's what we wanna do, but it, it's the safe choice. You know, if somebody has two years of industry experience and there's another person that has five years of product marketing experience, but nothing, you know, ask some more questions, like lean into that and see what they can do.
[00:39:55] They're, they got to that point. They're, you know, you think they're a smart person, they [00:40:00] will figure out your industry. That's what we do, you know? That's just the way our brains are wired
[00:40:04] Elle: Yeah. I, I tend to do the same thing, and I, I tend to focus more on product, core product marketing skill set, and then try ... And this is where I struggle. I don't, I don't have a good way to test for this, but, I try to find someone with high, like, technical aptitude, right? For some- sometimes those industries that are very deeply technical. so you need someone who has the ability to pick that up kind of quickly so that they can have an intelligent conversation with a very technical customer. Um, so as they're doing that research, they, they know what the ... They can, you know, keep up with the conversation. So that's what
[00:40:46] Matthew: And that's,
[00:40:47] Elle: but it's hard.
[00:40:48] It's hard, it's hard to test for that and measure for that
[00:40:51] Matthew: it's hard, but you also have to ask yourself, do they have a background that could easily translate
[00:40:57] Elle: That
[00:40:57] Matthew: that? You know? So like if they, you know, their [00:41:00] audience was very heavily finance, you know, then they're going into IT, you know, there is a really heavy finance, uh, you know, experience with IT.
[00:41:08] So like you might think, well, they don't under- you know, they're not used to talking to IT directors, but CFOs are almost always involved in IT purchases, and a lot of times what they're thinking about is the same. They are thinking about those high-level problems. So it always helps to, to learn to, to do that.
[00:41:23] But like I said, you know, as a product marketing manager, we love to get to the bottom of things. We love to figure it out. Just like I said, I, you know, when I meet someone, I learn how they like to, to take in data and how they like to present. I can do the same thing with another industry. You know? It's, you know, I, I have done it in my past.
[00:41:39] I went, I worked for, uh, as a solo product marketer for a company that sold to art galleries, and I had been in tech my, my whole career, and it was the weirdest thing. But, you know, 'cause it was-- And I, I often say like, I would love someone to show me a more difficult audience than, than the art gallery world.
[00:41:57] I, I do not think it exists. It was, [00:42:00] uh, it was a challenging group of people, but I did the same approach I would for... as a product marketer on a product. I, you know, I got in, I learned about these people. I saw how they liked to present, and one of the very first things I realized was the company was doing these super long demos to them, and I could see that it pained them.
[00:42:17] So I, one of the first things I did was I said, "Let's change this hour-long demo to 15 minutes."
[00:42:22] Like it's just, like these are not in their chair people, right? These are not, these are people that are sitting around, like even when you would get on with them, you could tell they weren't somewhere where they normally were and like it was, these are bouncing around folks.
[00:42:35] And so like, let's go by that and let's also, they want to consume information on their own time, so let's make it easier for, to do that. So, you know, I learned that about them, and then I made those changes, and I did that for pretty quickly.
[00:42:47] Elle: So good. So helpful to have. Um, uh, I'm gonna summarize what I think I've heard as, like, kind of the biggest takeaways from this case study segment. So first, first to... And you tell me if I'm missing anything, [00:43:00] by the way. Um, so there's first to kind of look through the, the org chart and to, you know, establish your allies.
[00:43:09] And for me, I think the way that I interpret that is to, like, build a stakeholder map basically, and then from there learn to play the game, and I think that's a- going deeper into my stakeholder map and adding in some context around each of the players. Um, and then prioritizing and trying to map the business needs and the gaps to the, um, obviously the business goals as well as individual goals.
[00:43:35] Go, again, go back to that stakeholder map, see if there are any goals there that I can try to align to, to try to reinforce those ally- allyship? Is that a word? Like reinforce those allies. you didn't, you didn't outright say this, but I said it, and I, I noticed that you do this, and this is something that I would, that I will, I'm actually gonna steal from you, is to sprinkle in the value throughout as you're kind of going back and working with those stakeholders.
[00:43:59] what'd I [00:44:00] miss?
[00:44:01] Matthew: No, I mean, that, that's exactly it. I would say, yeah, it's make friends, learn the rules, you know, uh, a- aim towards what other people are aiming, and, and be confident. You know, you're there for a reason. You got hired for a reason, you know, and y- you know what you're doing. You know, be confident and show people that you're confident, and it's, you know, that's the easiest way I would, I would kinda break it up
[00:44:23] Elle: All right, so now it's time for our next segment, the messaging critique. This is the part where, as product marketing experts, we get to analyze real-world messaging. And Matt, as my guest, you get to pick the company that we critique. Some quick ground rules, where, um, you're gonna tell me, you're gonna reveal who the company is, and then you're gonna tell me what the company's doing really well, what the PMMs there, if they have PMMs, um, what they're doing really well in terms of their messaging, something you wish the PMM would've done differently, and then we'll just do a quick brainstorm on how we'd take it to the next level if we were their product marketing coaches.
[00:44:59] so let's get [00:45:00] started. Yeah, reveal who the company is that we're gonna talk through t- uh, talk
[00:45:03] Matthew: Yeah. Uh, I would say REI Co-op. So they are an online retailer. They might have physical stores, but
[00:45:10] Elle: No, they do. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:11] Matthew: Yeah, I, I know
[00:45:12] them as more of their... Oh, nice. Nice. And, you know, they sell your, your outdoor, your outdoor fun stuff, you know, like canoes, kayaks, skis, kinda outdoor
[00:45:23] Elle: Camping gear, rock
[00:45:24] climbing gear, biking gear. They've got everything. Yeah, we go to that store. We've spent a lot of time at that store. Okay, so tell me more about their messaging, maybe a little bit about their target audience, kinda like what are your observations?
[00:45:40] Matthew: Yeah. So I would describe myself as I'm a bit of a, an ADHD hobby hopper. And the one way I, I stop myself from spending too much money on it is I research the bejesus out of something. So I have in my head where I wanna start being a kayaker, or I wanna be a dr- a drone pilot or, you know, I, I'm one of those [00:46:00] people.
[00:46:00] You know, normally people go out and they buy it, and they spend all the money, and then they, they put aside. I just learn everything there is to know about it and then kind of move on to the next one. So, uh, that's how I can kinda get away without spending, uh, you know, all my money on something that I'll, I'll
[00:46:13] Elle: Yeah, expensive gear.
[00:46:15] Matthew: Yeah. And so I had once had in my head where I'm, I'm gonna be... You know, I haven't quite given up on this one yet. I still do this somewhat and I am gonna dive back into this at some point. But, um, canoeing and kayaking. It was always something I liked as a kid, and my kids are really getting into it now.
[00:46:30] And so, like, I had in my head I wanna buy, uh... You know, I wanted to get an inflatable kayak or even, uh, you know, and I was like, "Well, I wanna learn." So just went online and I was like, "What's the, you know, what's the difference between a inflatable kayak and a hard shell one, and what can I use, you know, for fishing?"
[00:46:46] And you know, what I wanted to do. And I came to this really cool article, and it was really well-written, and it, it really was very clear, and it broke down exactly, you know, what, why this is important and this, and it so- and it was so good, [00:47:00] and then I read the whole article and I was like, "Oh, that was great."
[00:47:02] And I looked up and I was on rei.com, and I didn't even know. They had just written the, these articles as, you know, just these informal things, and that's how all blogs should be written. They , you know, they, they should be written with this people are coming for an informative thing. "Oh, you also sell that?
[00:47:19] That's cool." It shouldn't be, " Oh, you want this? Well, buy it from me right this second." And then that's what a lot of people do, and a lot of, um, people just wanna, wanna sell, sell, sell. But when you fight that urge to sell, sell, sell, you, you get an ally, and you get somebody in, you get someone that immediately has trust in you.
[00:47:37] So I immediately had trust that REI knew what they were talking about,
[00:47:41] Elle: So when you learn to play the game, part of that is, was like including your customers in that too, and what are their goals and what are their motivations, and how can you help meet their goals, not just shove your to-dos in their face like, "Buy my product."
[00:47:56] Matthew: Yeah, for sure
[00:47:58] Elle: I love that, and I know exactly the type of [00:48:00] blogs and content that you're speaking about with REI.
[00:48:02] They're extremely informative, and you, yeah, you don't realize even that you're reading
[00:48:07] Matthew: I had no idea
[00:48:09] Elle: Yeah, so bring it back to like, you know, the PMM kind of like messaging takeaways. Like what's something that, you know, you wished the, the, something the PMM did really well, and then something you wish they would've done differently?
[00:48:19] Matthew: The very well was they, they got the blogging strategy right. They presented themselves as experts and they used expert information and they knew when not to sell. And, and so they, they did that perfectly. And learning when not to sell is almost as important as learning how to sell. And so I thought that was great.
[00:48:35] One thing is, I don't even know if they, if they know what they have. And this is where I, I would say is when I talk about myself as a hobby hopper, I think they think of, you know, if I go to the website and I'm looking at a kayak, you know, I imagine a lot of the retargeting ads and things will be, "Okay, here's a kayak, here's a kayak, here's a kayak."
[00:48:52] I'm a hobby hopper. Show me a bike, show me skis, show me other things, and I bet you a lot of other people are. [00:49:00] Well, yeah, and I don't know if they do that and I, and like I said, I don't really think they do. I think they kind of think when someone's there, that's kind of their thing. But you know, this is what hobby hoppers do.
[00:49:09] You know, they, they wanna learn about everything and might be like, "Oh yeah, I did used to like riding a bike. Show me the, that bike. Ooh, it's, it's 50% off." Like, you know?
[00:49:17] Elle: Yeah.
[00:49:18] Matthew: And so that's one thing I would, I would suggest to them is don't just... Someone's there for a kayak, they probably like lots of other stuff
[00:49:25] Elle: Yeah. So I'm also, this is like, uh, I love this takeaway for product marketers t- because it's like study your target audience a little, a little closer in terms of like adjacent offerings and adjacent products that they may be interested in. And I, I wonder if we would see a trend in many different industries where, like, you start in one product and eventually you make your way into buying additional products because you get experience with one and you're like, "Well, that worked really well.
[00:49:55] I wanna do this more. What else is there? Well, what else is there? Well, what else is there?" I [00:50:00] love that. Super interesting. Uh, anything else to say about the REI, um, or REI marketing?
[00:50:07] Matthew: I just want more people to blog like that.
[00:50:09] Elle: I
[00:50:10] Matthew: all I I, I-- That's always my example
[00:50:12] Elle: It's a good
[00:50:13] Matthew: I'm talking to people about blogging. It's just, can we please, uh, you know. And I, I unders- It's, it's not done i-in malice, the thought. It's just people just they wanna, they want us-- They worked so hard on the product, and they know people worked hard on it, and they want us to put it out there, and they wanna talk about it.
[00:50:28] But it's, if you did it right, they will come. So
[00:50:31] it's take a breath
[00:50:33] Elle: 100%, I get it. Well, shout out REI and your PMMs if you have any, or if just your standard marketers. You guys are doing a great job with your messaging and your storytelling and, and your blogging, so we will definitely be stealing some of your tactics. All right. So Matt, one thing that I try to make space for on this podcast is a moment of tr- gratitude, because in product marketing, none of us get to where we are with, um, by ourselves.
[00:50:56] We're always learning and growing from each other, and we're better for it. [00:51:00] so before we wrap up, I just want to say a genuine thank you for making time to be here and sharing your expertise and your, um, and your insights. I really appreciate it
[00:51:08] Matthew: Well, thank you so much. This was wonderful. I, I would talk to you anytime
[00:51:11] Elle: Yeah. Aw, thank you so much. Um, and then I'd love to turn it around on you and give you a chance to give a shout-out to one or two PMMs who have made a real impact on how you think and, um, made an impact on how you are as a PMM today
[00:51:25] Matthew: Yeah. You know, they're actually not a, a PMM. They, they're someone that they've made their career now in operations consulting, and their name is Katie Barnes. And I only worked with her for a few months, but I still, almost every meeting I'm in, every task I'm doing, every thing I'm working on, I, I have that thought of, "Oh, like Katie would've done it this way," or, "What would Katie think about it?"
[00:51:49] Or, "How would she tell me to do that?" And I just... She was just such a confident person and, and that really taught me a lot about confidence. And she saw people [00:52:00] doing a bad job at consulting, at operations consulting, and getting away with it. And so she said, "Well, I think I could do a good job, so I'm gonna do it."
[00:52:07] So she left her full-time job, went out, became a full-time consultant, and she's doing great, and it's exactly where she should be. And she, she pushed, and every time I wanna kinda give up on something and say, "Well, it's not gonna work," I think, you know, Katie created this audience in such a short time, and she's established this great career for her where she's able to do what she wants, and I just, I always keep that in my mind.
[00:52:28] So Katie Barnes
[00:52:29] Elle: I love it. Yes. And now she's able to take the impact that she's had on you and impact probably hundreds of other people too. thank you so much, Matt. And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, please share it with a PMM friend, and I would be so grateful if you would leave us a review.
[00:52:45] It helps tremendously with our reach. Thank you so much for coming with us on this adventure today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey
