Evangelize Your Value Like Hattie the PMM
Feeling overlooked as a Product Marketing Manager? Like your strategic insights disappear into the corporate void whilst everyone else gets the credit? Here's the uncomfortable truth: if you're not evangelizing your value, someone else is defining it for you.
PMMs possess a powerful blend of strategy, insight, and impact, yet we're often the best-kept secret in our own organizations. Today, I'm sharing insights from my conversation with Hattie, PMM founder of productmarketers.com, on how to make your contributions impossible to ignore.
Meet Hattie the PMM
Here's why Hattie's the perfect person to tackle this challenge: she's lived every bit of it. She founded product marketers.com, now one of the fastest-growing hubs for PMM jobs, insights, and community. By her twenties, she'd already built and successfully exited her own company, then stepped into the CMO role at Tempo Software—a major player in the Atlassian ecosystem.
As the sole PMM owning their SaaS division, she drove substantial ARR growth that spoke louder than any job title could. With credentials like that, Hattie's become the voice PMMs turn to when they're ready to be seen for their authentic expertise—not just as messengers delivering someone else's vision.
PMMs spend their careers telling other people's stories. Hattie shows you how to become the story by owning your expertise and sharing it without apology.
Know Your Worth (Then Make Sure Everyone Else Does)
Product marketing isn't just tactical execution—it's strategic orchestration. Hattie's journey from underestimated newcomer to leading PMM voice proves one thing: great work doesn't speak for itself. People do. Your role extends far beyond campaign launches and messaging—you're aligning organizational strategy with market reality. Time to own that narrative.
Your Strategic Playbook
Here's how to make your value undeniable:
1. Map Your Internal Power Players Stop hoping the right people notice your work. Identify who actually influences your career progression. Who makes decisions about your projects? Who controls budget allocation? These are your internal customers, and they need to understand exactly what you deliver.
2. Cultivate Your Champions Find advocates who speak for you when you're not in the room. This isn't about office politics—it's about ensuring the right people understand your contributions. Your champions become your amplifiers, translating your impact into language leadership understands.
3. Create Your Visibility System Develop a consistent approach to showcasing wins, insights, and strategic contributions. Regular updates that connect your work to business outcomes. The goal isn't self-promotion—it's strategic communication that keeps your value front and center.
Authenticity as Your Competitive Edge
The biggest shift in any PMM's journey is embracing your authentic strengths. Whether it's empathy, strategic thinking, or communication prowess—lean into what makes you uniquely valuable. Authenticity eliminates the exhaustion of pretending to be someone else and lets your natural talents shine.
Make Yourself Irreplaceable
Recognition isn't about working harder or shouting louder. It's about strategic positioning and consistent communication. When you align your contributions with organizational goals and make your impact visible, you transform from overlooked team member to strategic asset.
Messaging Critique: Guideflow
For this segment of the show, Hattie chose Guideflow, a company doing AI-based interactive demos. Their website's playful animations were delightful, but underneath the charm lay a classic PMM problem: they were underselling themselves spectacularly.
Guideflow's challenge mirrors our own as PMMs: they need to stop apologizing for their expertise and start owning their unique value proposition. Instead of scattered messaging that whispers "we do lots of things," they need bold, coherent storytelling that declares "here's exactly why you can't afford to ignore us."
The lesson? Whether you're a SaaS company or a PMM fighting for recognition, diluted messaging gets you diluted results. Define your unique value, then showcase it without apology.
Consider joining initiatives like Hattie's PMM challenge for practical strategies and community support. Because the best PMMs don't just execute campaigns—they shape how organizations understand and value product marketing itself.
Your expertise deserves recognition. Time to make sure it gets it.
LINKS:
Guideflow (messaging critique): https://www.guideflow.com/
Connect with Hattie
Websites: https://www.hattiethepmm.com/ |. https://www.productmarketers.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hattiethepmm
Connect with Elle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/
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[00:00:00] Elle: Okay, so before we dive into the playbook, let me get some context. So today we're talking all about how do become known, um, how to evangelize your value internally and build the credibility across your org. And obviously you've done that not only internally, but then across the entire community of product marketing.
So, you've lived this story firsthand. Tell us more about, about that entire experience. Help us set the stage for us.
[00:00:24] Hatti: Yeah, for Sure.
So many people don't actually know my background. So I had my own company for six and a half years. And with that company it started off as a feminist body, positive lingerie brand, which then turned into an e-commerce play that housed other people's brands.
And then it ended up being a complete tech play. So there I was able to build out the sales team, marketing function, product, team, everything. It was wild. We were manufacturing in. China, Morocco, the uk, we had our warehouse up in Scotland. It was an operational like nightmare, but it taught me so much about product marketing.
It was like a product marketing crash course, honestly. [00:01:00] And then I was a CMO for two years after the exit of the company because then, uh, Tim o the, the CEO had mentioned, oh, I had seen you a lot on Twitter. 'cause I was very active on Twitter at the time, believe it or not, Al. And he reached out to me in my DMS and said, we need to hire you 'cause you are just like a disruptor.
Because at the time with my company, I was basically shown in every major publication from CNBC to the Telegraph, the London Evening Standard. I was in e every major publication for PR reasons. 'cause we were just such a major disruptor in the tech space. So. Being in, you know, C-Suite for literally eight years.
When I then entered into corporate America when I was headhunted by actually a pm who then referred me internally, I entered back into the IC role because everything that I'd been doing up until that point L was literally IC product marketing role. Even though I was building out teams, building out the marketing [00:02:00] function, it was all product marketing centric, even though I didn't know the terminology Right.
Like at the time I didn't know that differentiation and messaging and all of that. I was like, how do we find clients? Like how do we like compete? Like how do we speak to them? Like what the F is going on? You know? And that's when I entered into corporate America and I'd realized. Oh, shoot, I have zero respect here.
No one cares about me or like my C-Suite or like, they don't automatically respect me because I'm in that, you know, power position. Right.
So my visibility was literally, it gone from a hundred to zero real quick. And on top of that I had a micromanager who. For some reason we clashed the entire time that he was at the company and it caused a lot of stress.
I started grinding my teeth at night. I thought I had to quit the company. To a point where I had such like a detrimental impact on my mental health, my physical health, I was like, I think I just have to quit this [00:03:00] organization 'cause I don't understand what the heck is happening. 'cause me as a person, I, I remained the same l Right.
I was like the same Hattie across all the different organizations. Right. All the different roles. And now that I've entered into corporate America in this IC role, I was like, what has happened? 'cause my knowledge has remained the same, if not improved even faster. But I'm being perceived as someone who's like an actual, just like a little ant who can be downtrodden, who can be undermined, who can be pushed to side.
I was like, is it a sexism thing? Is it like a even a racism thing? Like I don't understand what
[00:03:34] Elle: and you're racking your brain trying to figure out, how did I get here?
[00:03:38] Hatti: Completely. Like I had to invest in so much therapy at the time I had to invest in coaching. I was like, I don't get it. And then it was the minute that I realized, okay, let me just take a step back. I love the product I'm working on. I love the company. I do not like my micromanager, but I like everyone else.
So what is it that I can control? And the, the thing that [00:04:00] came straight to my mind, Al, was the fact that. Not only wasn't product marketing understood or valued, but because I was the PM, he felt that he could just like downtrodden me in order for him to keep growing in his career as a director. Right, So after I realized that, I was like, okay, well let me, before I quit, let me see what an impact I can have within this organization. But within my role, let me see this as a growth moment. Let me see this as a, an opportunity for me to improve and see what can happen. But it was a real shift in the visibility factor and the respect factor between literally being for eight plus years, super respected, super visible in terms of publications worldwide.
I had amazing teams work with me, and then that was like the toughest scenario that I found myself in.
[00:04:53] Elle: Yeah. Wow. That's in Incre an incredible story and I, I think that it's gonna resonate with a lot of people, I [00:05:00] myself have experienced almost everything that you described from grinding your teeth at night to, needing to invest in some therapy to try to figure out what is going on here, and dealing with an incredibly toxic, awful manager.
And it's, it's frustrating 'cause then you go from, having a sense of authority, especially from where you were being part of the C-suite, to not only being in, you know, a grunt work role, but having your voice and your value kind of squashed by someone else. and you know what's interesting that I realized while you were talking about product marketing, and your unique background really illuminated this for me.
and one of the reasons why I think I personally am so drawn to product marketing is that we do so much more than typical marketing, right? It's a lot of the strategy and enabling sales and driving revenue, and you kind of [00:06:00] have to have an entrepreneurial spirit to be a really excellent product marketer.
And so I, it's just so natural that your background in entrepreneurship, in part is what makes you such a great product marketer. so just with your overall, like the shift that you had to go through, I guess like what was the task at hand, that you needed to do to change that dynamic?
And I guess what approach did you take?
[00:06:25] Hatti: Yeah,
so it was wild because I.
found myself in the first round of layoffs and just seeing it happen. Luckily it didn't impact me, but I saw my very, very, very good friend, a very smart designer, get let go in the first round. And it shocked me because as, as you see on Slack, when someone is let go, there's like that blackout black and white screen that you see their photos in.
It's kind of like a memorial. It's really quite sad. It's really gross. But I actually saw it turn, he messaged me and say, Hey, it was really nice working with you. And I was like, what the heck is happening? And then [00:07:00] I el I saw the screen turn from colored to black and white in front of my face. So I start shaking visibly.
I'm like, what? What the heck is happening Right, now? Because he was so amazing, so incredible. Just like the quality of work that he created. Was it just second to none, and then all of a sudden the town hall meeting pops up literally five to 10 minutes later. In my candor, I'm shaking visibly because you know, I live alone.
I don't have rich parents. I've come from poverty, right,
My dad was a baker. My mom was a cleaner, and I don't have anyone to rely on, so I'm literally the one who's paying my bills. So Then after I realized that it wasn't just the first round of layoffs that were happening, but it became too, it became free up until it became five before I quit. After the first round of layoffs, I realized I need to make sure 100% undoubtedly, absolutely guaranteed and [00:08:00] certified that everyone understands what not only product marketing is and the value it has, but also on a personal level.
What I'm doing, why and how it's adding value. Because I was like, I'm not allowing the man in like this organization in the sky or like up above like, you know, the phrase the man to decide my career for me and to derail me or to like send me out on the street. Like that's not happening. No way in heck is that happening, right.
So I was like, okay, I need a absolute clearer understanding of how to build up my perception and build it up fast. Like I need to do this within weeks to a month. Like I do not know when the next round is happening. Right.
And this was a private equity backed firm, so who knows what would happen. As I mentioned, Al, I was the exact same person for eight plus years in C-Suite, so I had recognized that it wasn't mainly a me thing. It might not have even been a knowledge thing. It wasn't even a skill thing. It was purely perception, purely visibility.
[00:08:58] Elle: Yes, [00:09:00] exactly. So then what happened? Like, what was the result after you decided that you need to, to take control over the visibility and perception?
[00:09:07] Hatti: Yeah.
so it was wild because once I cracked the code on like, how do I build up my visibility? How do I make sure people understand me? They trust me, they know me. Maybe even they like me, but that was like at the bottom of the barrel. I was just like, I need people to understand why I'm there, the value I'm providing.
I was literally brought into PE meetings, like private equity meetings within a month. I was known by the private equity firm. I was known by the C-Suite and this was like a organization of 500 plus people based out in America. I was the only UK employee at the time and I was working completely remotely.
So, you know, working remote first has a completely different set of issues when it comes to visibility and you know, building up nuances and schmoozing and all of that stuff. So I had recognized the result was really fast. I was brought into the private meetings with the stakeholders, really important ones.[00:10:00]
I was getting their air time and the air coverage that I really, really required. So. It was fascinating because once I started to see this happen within my own career, I was, I was starting to teach this to the new pmms who were being brought in because as the function was growing in this value and the PE firm who were obviously backing the company, they were now investing more in product marketing.
So I was teaching my colleagues how to do the same thing. How we can all build up our perception, our visibility, make sure that we're really brought in, we're a key stakeholder at the table. Right. And even like I was managing up for my manager and making sure that she was always brought in, whether she was the CMO, the vp, like I had very different managers at very different times.
Right. But I was making sure that she was brought in. Yeah,
Because it's one thing to be a woman in tech, but to be a woman in C-suite, in executive pres, like executive level in tech, I'm just like, I'm here to support you, girl. Like fucking crush it. But what was fascinating, Elle was like off the back of it, off of like learning what I did in [00:11:00] my career, but also for my colleagues. Other pmms started to reach out to me because I started to post on LinkedIn. I was sharing my learnings and they needed guidance, and I didn't actually want to be a coach.
I'll be real l like, the reason I started posting on LinkedIn and started building myself up was not because of narcissistic reasons. It was purely because I wanted to secure myself, my career and make sure that people understood what I was doing. So me, me posting on LinkedIn was literally. Also a route to do that.
But there was a changing point when I started to realize, huh, I think I am destined for more, I'm, I think I'm destined to potentially be a coach for other pmms, was the fact that I had a lady based out here in London reach out to me. Her name's Rice, and she dmd me and she said, I'm under the weight of the world right now.
I, and I dunno how to battle my way out of this. She said that stakeholders don't understand what she does her value. She's not respected whatsoever as a young woman in tech. [00:12:00] And I was like, my goodness, okay. I cannot. Like, I cannot even fathom me gatekeeping the information that I had learned. So I taught her everything.
And within the space of just a year el, she literally turned her career around from being not respected. Undervalued, underpaid to now she's working at a major corporation. She's making killer money. She's so respected and she is loving life to a point where I actually bumped into her and her boyfriend, and her boyfriend was like, thank you so much.
Like, I was like, I was like, of course. Like, hey, like I'm here to help you girlfriend. Like, she's great. Right. It's great. And that's, that was the only reason then l that I created. Product marketers.com because, and also the profitable PMM challenge because I want to get people to their goal within five days.
What I did with Rice in nine to 12 months, which she started to see a shift within three months of them packaged up into five days. Can you imagine? So, [00:13:00] yeah. So I'm just like, I'm not gatekeeping this anymore. It's had like in insane shifts, insane breakthroughs in pmms lives,
[00:13:08] Elle: I love it. I have goosebumps. We need to dive more into this. So, I wanna take this big experience that you had yourself and then even saw it again, repeated with rice, where as a product marketer, you're in this position where I think it's, it's.
Exacerbated by having a terrible manager. But even when you don't have a terrible manager, it can be very easy for product marketers to be stuck in a non-visible, I don't wanna say role, but I, I guess like function, the function of product marketing can be very easily non-visible because we don't own a metric, right?
So we're not like reporting pipeline, like our, our, counterparts in maybe like a demand gen type role would be. so let's take that experience and let's turn it into a playbook for product marketers. So let's say I'm a PM, maybe similar to Rice. [00:14:00] Who wants to evangelize my value for my organization?
What's the first step I need to take to start that journey?
[00:14:09] Hatti: Yeah, for sure. I love that you're breaking this down because Rice was the first client, but I've had hundreds since and it's always worked for them. Yeah. So let's get deep into this. I'm super
excited.
so step one is realizing if you focus on not only the quality and delivery of the tactical work, but the communication that goes along with it. So the quality and the delivery of the communication that will no longer allow you to be seen as an assistant or a purely tactical PMM.
And it's super key. This is why every client I have, I always recommend they, they take at least one. Improv comedy class. It sounds wild, but I've taken so many improv comedy courses, which I recommend to my higher level clients who are literally 10 plus years in the game. I have a couple who are 30 plus years [00:15:00] in the game and I'm like, just take a full eight week course because you're going to learn the art of communication and how to think off the top of your dome and also remove the pressure and the stress that comes with it.
Because here's the thing, if you learn how to forcefully find opportunities within your organization to speak to what you've done and how you've contribute to projects, 'cause as LY said, we don't own specific pipeline metrics. We require other people that we work with in order to action the work that we then create, and then the results come in.
So therefore, we actually need to be a really good communicator. We need to be a good negotiator. We need to be a good persuader. For other people, then that's going to have like the step one unlock and if, and then the next stage from that is figure out your personal ICP. Now, what do I mean by that?
Usually you think of ICP as your organization's, ICP, who you're trying to attract for your customers, but who is your customer? Like ideal customer profile within the [00:16:00] organization internally,
that's super key.
[00:16:03] Elle: Yes, I love that. Okay, so how do you do that exactly? I mean, like what are some examples of an ICP? For A PMM? You know, I think the obvious ones that I can think of are like product or sales, but how should PMM start to determine who their internal ICP is?
[00:16:21] Hatti: Yeah.
a lot of people start with those departments, but actually it truly isn't most of the of the time, which is super surprising. That's why a lot of pmms will catch themselves on the flywheel of providing sales with a bunch, or providing product with a bunch, and they don't see their personal career moved forwards.
Your real decision maker, your real ICP, it might not even be your manager, but it's about finding who fundamentally decides your career. Who fundamentally decides your bonuses? Who fundamentally decides your promotion? When it comes down to making cuts, who is deciding who makes cuts? Is it actually your CEO or is it someone in his or [00:17:00] her ear telling them what to do?
Is it a PE firm? Is it a VC fund? Like you have to get down to the root of this. Once you find out the root, and if you really make sure that you are on their radar, that is your true ICP for your. Your career and when it comes down to it, I'm a big fan and a big proponent of own your career where, where you can, we can control what we can.
Right. And if you get down to that, that is like Who your true ICP is. It might not be your manager, it might not even be the CEO, it's about who, when it comes down to it makes your, the decisions when it comes down to your career.
[00:17:41] Elle: Who has the power and influence, and typically that's someone who's hanging onto a budget or they have some kind of authority or power in the organization. Very commonly a VP and above type of person, but may not be, may not be. [00:18:00] okay, so let's say, getting back to our playbook, I've identified who my ICP is, right?
what's step two? What do I do with this information? Now,
[00:18:10] Hatti: I, have a question for you, Al. Have you ever thought to yourself that if you just keep doing great work, eventually someone will notice?
[00:18:20] Elle: I think that people around me may notice, but I don't necessarily think anyone's gonna do anything with that information,
[00:18:28] Hatti: Exactly. You're exactly Right. Because I quickly realized that great work doesn't speak for itself. People do. And sometimes I feel like I need to repeat that. It's
not about the great work. Great work doesn't speak for itself.
People do. And realizing that great work doesn't speak for itself means that who internally can speak on behalf of you. You know, outside of your little circle who knows how much work you do, who knows how much effort you're putting in, who knows how careful you are and how much of an empath you are when it comes to your customers and how you [00:19:00] approach work.
But who is it that can speak on your behalf positively, who can share in the right way and then find the metrics that are associated with it.
[00:19:10] Elle: Right
[00:19:10] Hatti: that's mainly step two.
[00:19:12] Elle: Yes. Yes. And one thing that I found successful in doing that in my career is anywhere I start somewhere new. I'll create, and this is just an exercise I do for myself. I'll create a quick stakeholder map, and in that stakeholder map I'll figure out, who do I need to communicate how often and what do I need to communicate up to them and to what depth?
And that in turn determines, you know, if I do a, a monthly update or a weekly update or a quarterly update and what that person cares about, it's kind of, it's very similar actually to like an ICP persona buyer team exercise. But it's for me and it's like, okay, here's the GM of the business. What does that person [00:20:00] care about?
Here's the, you know, my VP of product. What does that person care about? Here's the CMO. What does that person care about? And as I'm mapping out these various stakeholders, what are, what are the metrics these individuals are responsible for? What are things they care about? What are things they're tracking?
And how does my role in my job influence those? And that determines then how often I should be, communicating my impact, the value of me and my team up. So I'm curious, like, is an exercise like that anything that you've seen or done, or do you have other examples of what maybe that looked like for you when you were in the thick of it?
[00:20:40] Hatti: Yeah.
for sure. So you are 100% correct. And if I was to add to this, it would be the fact that a lot of people get hung up on the product marketing charter and they think that that's like the holy grail. So they'll be like, oh, I created a product marketing charter with everything. And they'll feel like, okay, well this is the silver bullet that will solve [00:21:00] all of my issues.
And it's like, No, no.
way, dude. Like it's gonna sit in the archives of some random place that no one else will check it out. And and you've spent like hours creating this thing that might not even be looked.
It's just a waste of time. But when I say to my clients, it's a waste of time unless you use it as part of a roadshow. Now it's effective, right? So again, it's the quality of the work that you're creating, but also with the communication aspect. The minute you remove the communication aspect, people will not go looking to understand or consume this bit of charter in a way that you think that they will.
And I'm a big fan of moving away from egocentric product marketing. Whenever I Google something and I see an article. Written on behalf of product marketers. And it's so utopian and it's so egocentric, and it's like if you do X, Y, Z, you will now be, you know, part of a unicorn company and everyone will respect you.
And [00:22:00] here's your trajectory for your career. In five years time you'll be earning X, Y, Z. And I'm like, you have made this out of literally thin air. And when it comes down to like seeing this level of, okay, well if you just create a charter, everyone will understand product marketing and everyone will promote you.
And how great will that be? And it's like, dude, you don't understand the nuance of the stakeholders. We deal with the troubling people in tech, in, in the developers, in the product team in blah, blah, blah. So the pairing up the of the product marketing charter with the roadshow is the killer combination.
[00:22:39] Elle: Yes. I love that. Okay, so getting back to our playbook, we've got step one of, identifying your internal ICP and then step two within those ICPs, figuring out which one is gonna be your, who's gonna be your champion, uh, whether that's through a stakeholder map and not, you can't, not absolutely.
Everybody who's an ICP will be a [00:23:00] champion, right? so figuring out which one is gonna go in the rooms where you are not in and speak that value on your behalf because of all the hard work that you've been doing to communicate your value. then what happens, I guess what's in step three?
[00:23:13] Hatti: Yeah. step three?
is a really, really good one. And what I would add to what you said is if a ICP person is not a champion, it's about making them a champion. Like it's important to manage up and to make them a champion. Yeah.
So it's not only just like seeing who currently can speak on your behalf and who can validate what you're doing, but also if you are seeing that there are blocks there in the person who basically decides your career at this organization, you need to unblock.
Like it. And there has to be process in place in order to do that, which leads to step three, which is creating a system that is on autopilot to build up your visibility and your perception. Because it's one thing to do a one-off piece of, you know, roadshow [00:24:00] once when you first joined the company and then you've left it and now you're free years deep and there are new hires being made and they don't understand what it is you do and they're teaching you in a really disrespectful way.
Versus if you make sure that your visibility and your perception was on autopilot in a system that you can create, that's how you do it. So it's not just like a one-off, one and done piece of work, but it's something that you're constantly building. Because I would presume that the function of product marketing is always changing, especially now with AI and our role is becoming less tactical.
It's becoming more strategic, and therefore it's even more important to validate, well, why is it. Here's a question I always ask my clients is like, we're always thinking with my clients in product marketers.com. I'm always saying to them, we need to always justify why you are worth over six figures, like always, and how we, how can we always build upon your career on everything that you've done?
All of your skill sets at all of them are so talented, so incredibly intelligent. Even the people that you have on your podcast l have just been like groundbreaking people, right? [00:25:00] So it's about like how do you validate that and creating a system is the way to do it, because hard skills is what product marketing is told to own, but not communicating.
The value that we are creating is really doing us a disservice. So not seeing as the communication piece as a one and done thing or being like, oh, we just launched a go to market that's done. Move on to the next. But how can you communicate the improvements on it? How can you communicate the, I don't know, like how you are evolving it?
And then just make sure that you are always front of mind when it comes to it.
[00:25:32] Elle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It sounds like communication is so key in part of that, making that, um, repeatable autopilot system. Um, and I'm really eager to hear more about that. So, uh, which I, I don't wanna get too ahead into, the content that we've got. So let's do a quick recap. We've got step one of, figuring out the, ICP step two of determining the internal [00:26:00] champions and making sure that you.
Unblock any potential champions that are part of that, and making sure that your impact is seen and measured by those champions. And then step three is building that repeatable system to communicate your value, which is, so that's just such a powerful mind shift in how we do product marketing. so then coming back to our, my one last question for you on this topic, and I guess for any PMM who's out there listening and trying to build credibility and influence in their org, what is your final piece of advice as they're trying to create that system and build out their champions and identify their ICPs?
[00:26:40] Hatti: Yeah.
this is a crucial piece of advice that I would give. And I have a lot of male clients, which always surprises people, and I tell them because they're always like, Hattie, communication, well, how is that important? Or, oh, being authentic, how is that important? They're always, and I'm like, dude, please [00:27:00] just hear me out.
It's not wooo stuff. It's super important. But one thing that I've recognized amongst pmms when they first join me to when they leave or when they're like six months deep into our coaching is they will start off kind of acting. Like as a professional being like, oh, I need to act a specific way, or I need to pretend to be someone that I'm not.
And the biggest unlocks that I've had in my clients in terms of them speeding up, the rate of them getting to their personal goals in their career has been when they've relinquished the control and said, I'm going to fully lean into being me unapologetically. And it sounds very woo woo, but it's actually not if you really think about it, because if you don't spend the time changing yourself.
Putting yourself into a completely different version of you. You're basically, if you do that, you remove your complete edge, you remove your unfair advantage, you remove the gifts that you've been given because I have a [00:28:00] real world understanding of we. As pmms, we as humans in general, we are given specific strengths in all each of us that allows us to be reliant on one another.
That's how we can work as an ecosystem. It's like systems thinking to how we in tech are built. And also when it comes to building teams, which I've done multiple times, I'm always thinking about, okay, well what are the different strengths that I can have within my team members? And how are, can they compliment one another?
So when I see pmms come to me and they're like, oh, I read this article on, you know, X, Y, Z, like habits of a good pm m, or how I should be, or the skill sets to have, and it's the antithesis of their superpowers, of their unfair advantage. I'm like, you need to cut that out as quickly as possible and lean into what gives you your strength.
Lean into what is your unfair advantage and bring that to the table because that will actually be your unlock and your key to speeding up your success factor. And I actually break [00:29:00] this down in. My profitable PMM challenge and I break it down because it's interesting where I've retracted all different seniority from pmms who are literally one year in the game to 30 plus years in the game from different industries across payment to pure SaaS and more in different geographies from Columbia to the us.
It's wild. Like the breadth of different people That come into a profitable PMM M challenge. And it's fascinating because I can feel and see the shift in the pmms where at the start of the week they're acting a specific way. Like, oh, this is what a professional PMM acts like.
And towards the end, everyone's like open and vulnerable and they're like, my goodness, this was like therapy. But equally, I'm now strengthened, I'm motivated, I now feel like I can own my career as opposed to being like a bystander and watching my career fly before my eyes because
of some, someone above.
It's so fun.
but also it's just so groundbreaking that. I truly believe if people do the internal work, that's why I'm a huge fan of [00:30:00] therapy in my own life. And I, I'm like, I recommend it. If my clients need to do it, I'm like, maybe you might wanna think about it. but delving deep into, well, what is it that makes you unique?
And therefore how can you bring that and like, strengthen that muscle and make sure that you don't allow that to whi away in your career, but you use it as your superpower should be.
[00:30:20] Elle: Absolutely. I love that resonates so much with me, and it's a lesson that it took me a while to learn early in my career. I am very obviously a high energy and enthusiastic person. And being female, being a woman, being very feminine, it's, it was hard earlier on in the B2B tech world, and I was very quickly, very often stereotyped.
Um, and it was, it was just hard for me to try to figure out how, what I should, what I should do with this, this energy and enthusiasm [00:31:00] because I couldn't turn it off.
[00:31:02] Hatti: Right.
[00:31:03] Elle: So I had to learn, well, how do I use this actually as a superpower? And how to use it to influence and motivate people. and I was able to do that, but it took me time to not be stereotyped as, you know, someone who's airheaded and not, not competent, right?
I had to prove I had to prove my competencies along with my enthusiasm, um, and my high energy. And that took time to do. but it's an ongoing, management of my superpowers. So I'm curious, if I were to join the profitable PMM challenge today, what could I expect as part of the experience?
[00:31:46] Hatti: Yeah. I think you would honestly find it groundbreaking out. I would love to have you as part of the challenge, because you are able to really go in deep into the systems thinking behind everything that's done, because I think [00:32:00] a lot of product marketing content is always around the end result. It's like, oh, create this.
PMM charter or create this, you know, breakdown
of the P, Here's an asset. here's a framework, here's the final thing. When actually I go in deep. Like actually deep.
[00:32:16] Elle: It's all about the, the, the system and the process, not necessarily the end result.
[00:32:21] Hatti: Exactly. It's like the context in which everything else is built. And I do that for my clients in terms of if you want to learn how to absolutely crush it in your career, take the challenge and L you would be able to do that because you are undermined for being feminine for, you know, you were seen as like the airhead people, and I'm telling you, the pmms who've been in my challenge so far, they've literally come with these.
These topics and the men in my challenge have said, I faced workplace bullies. I have dealt with being undermined yet because I found this unique trait in US PMM specifically, [00:33:00] which is we are majority on the whole empaths. We actually care about our customer, we care about doing good work, and therefore it gets used against our advantage by people who want to use it for their own advantage.
A lot of pmms that I speak to and have helped are typically introverted. I'm actually an introvert, believe it or not. And I am an introvert who acts extrovert in order to get the job done and do what I am meant to do on this planet, uh, by God's well. And, I recognize that a lot of introverts are pushed over by the extroverts.
And again, whether the extroverts lie, usually in sales, usually in product, usually they're very up their own bums and we need to face that. So the challenge, it really goes in deep. It doesn't just. Test you on the product marketing knowledge you have. You literally don't have to learn anything else. It's All about me saying, show up as you are with the knowledge that you have, you have all the skill sets already.
You have all the knowledge already. This is about now learning [00:34:00] how to unpack it so we can go in deep into the core of you. I will give you homework every single day for you to do. Every day builds upon one another, and by the end of the week, you will feel your life and your career changed. And a hundred percent out of a hundred percent so far.
Does that even make sense? Like a hundred percent like te whatever, a hundred like I'm, so it Doesn't matter. Like I'm excited. Yeah. Like a hundred percent of people so far of PMM so far have been like, that was insane. And at the start of the week, they're like, Hattie, We think you are crazy. But by the end of it.
they're like, I see why you did that now.
And I'm like, yes, thank you for trusting me. so.
honestly, al, like I would love to have you in the profitable PMM challenge. You would
be
like,
[00:34:46] Elle: be so fun. Thank you. So shameless plug, for anyone out there who's curious, check out the PMM challenge. Um, yeah, 100%.
[00:34:58] Hatti: 100%.
out, [00:35:00] hundred percent out. Like, I'm gonna make that.
[00:35:02] Elle: Yes, I love it. This was such a helpful case study on how pmms can bring their value to the table and be seen known in their organization and go from being underestimated and undervalued to being appreciated and having their careers just absolutely take off. So thank you so much Hattie, for showing us all the work that goes into that and how pmms can get started today.
alright, so that closes the first segment of our show. Now I'd like to move on to the second segment of our show, which is the messaging critique. So if anyone has listened before, you know, this is the part where, um, Hattie and I as product marketing experts get to analyze real world marketing. And the fun part is Hattie gets to choose the company that we take a look at.
Um, before we get started, just gonna go over some really quick ground rules. we're gonna pick a company or Hattie has picked a company, that we have an understanding of the [00:36:00] customer on, or that she has an understanding of the customer on. 'cause great product marketing, no, you know, you can't just pick a company or critique messaging on a company where you don't know the customer.
So, that's how we select the company. And, uh, first Hattie's gonna tell me something that she's loving about the messaging. Second, something that she wishes the PMM would've done differently or considered. And then finally, we're gonna do a quick, fun, creative brainstorm on what the PMM can do to take their messaging to the next level.
again, all about learning and refining our craft. No negativity. Just a thoughtful, constructive critique. All right, so Hadie, please give us the unveil, like who is the, who's the company that you've selected today?
[00:36:42] Hatti: Yeah, the company I've selected is called Guide Flow.
[00:36:45] Elle: Okay, I'm gonna open their website. I was so excited. I took a peek earlier and I squealed 'cause it's so cute. So for everyone who's listening, it's guide flow, G-U-I-D-E-F-L-O w.com. [00:37:00] And it's so cute when you go to their website, there's like a little animated like it, they look like toys
[00:37:07] Hatti: Yeah, toy Ducks
[00:37:09] Elle: probably, yeah, they're so cute.
They're like going down like a little slide and it like, immediately before I even read anything on the page, I, it brings me joy just
[00:37:20] Hatti: it, does And This is like, it, it's just like, it really does it probably, I am in a season of life where I have a three and a half year old and a 16 month old.
[00:37:29] Elle: So like. Child play is very much part of my every day. So it's probably,
[00:37:36] Hatti: Love it.
[00:37:37] Elle: Hattie, please tell me what does Guide Flow do?
[00:37:40] Hatti: Yeah.
so they do interactive demos and I've heard about them because firstly, two of their sales guys came to one of my events here in London. 'cause I throw PMM mini conferences every month. And I was like, what the heck are you guys doing here? And they were so fun and so bubbly. And I [00:38:00] was like, oh, interesting.
Okay, I'll check you out. And then, uh, like what was interesting was I learned that a lot of pmms are switching to them as a, as a company. Yeah.
So I was like, okay, I need to check you
guys
out.
[00:38:12] Elle: out.
Yeah.
Okay. Okay. So, um, interactive demos, I love it. Which by the way, I think my la one of my last guests, recent guests also shared a, it wasn't interactive, maybe it was like a self-guided demo platform kind of tool. So I'm really curious to see how this one differs and maybe if they play in like, not like the same market, but like cater to maybe a different, um, ICP.
So I'll be really curious about that. So who do you think is guidepost target customer?
[00:38:44] Hatti: Yeah, So they've made it pretty clear that their target customer are marketers in general, product marketers, customer support, sales training and enablement products, partnerships and more. But I like the fact that they've been clear about who they're going after. Yeah.
[00:38:59] Elle: [00:39:00] So just a quick question for clarification. Is it saying that like, is guide flow, is it for a company to arm their internal employees with interactive demos? so that they can like go demo something for a customer or prospect at any time? Or is it for a company to create for any customer to be able to do an interactive demo?
[00:39:25] Hatti: It's primarily to my understanding for an organization to show interactive demos on their website, but also the CS teams and the sales teams can do their own demos on behalf of customers and support them that way as needed. Yeah.
So I think it's like a mix of using it on the website, but also directing customers directly either through a link, you know, personalized link and they'll be able to watch demos when they need support, which is pretty
cool.
It's, it's cool.
that it like taps both sides, right?
[00:39:55] Elle: I like, yeah, I agree. Um, okay. So what are you loving about their [00:40:00] messaging?
[00:40:00] Hatti: I, because I've used the product, I actually delved into it. 'cause I'm always up for like using new products, especially if they're for pmms. Like their product is genuinely, truly beautiful, Elle. And what I then saw in like the messaging is even though like I love their cute and playful nature, like you mentioned with the ducks, but I'm like, they are underselling themselves.
I think that was what was most surprising to me. The messaging is just truly underselling themselves massively. and the use of like the AI based, I was like, like the messaging isn't speaking to what like really drove me in the product and I, Yeah.
So it's really fascinating because I'm like, they do a great job of showing that.
You know, their tool is used by insanely great organizations. And the demo, the, the interactive demo that they actually show is fantastic and the breakthrough and everything. But I'm like, I think you could go harder, dude. Like, I just think [00:41:00] you can go so much harder. because most of the interactive demos that I've seen, they do obviously leave, like link into it speeds up, you know, you can do it in seconds and not days and you know, you can build one in five minutes.
But because I've used their tool, it feels quality. Like I don't, I don't know. It's like that, that feeling is there. And I'm a big fan of anything that's quality from it, from like the pens that I
[00:41:28] Elle: I hands Down, I'm so sick of like garbage stuff that's really low quality.
[00:41:34] Hatti: Yeah, no, over that. And especially when you're at a specific seniority, you're just like, I just want to be surrounded by beauty.
Like I need to, and I'm like, I don't see any of the aha moments that I had in their
[00:41:50] Elle: Ah,
[00:41:51] Hatti: Yeah.
[00:41:51] Elle: Okay. So when I go to their website, it says, show don't tell. Create AI based interactive demos to, and [00:42:00] then they've got this like, kind of like a carousel of changing use cases. It's like, upgrade your customer support, supercharge your sales. I'm waiting for the next one to come train your team in seconds onboard your customers.
Right? So it's changing, it's, it's changing in all these use cases. And I kind of feel like, I mean, I don't wanna get too much into your critique, but I kind of feel like. They're trying to be everything everywhere, all at once. Like they're focusing on all these different use cases, which I think they're gonna have very different set of problems.
And by doing that, you're not, to your point, telling a good story on any one particular use case. Like, yeah, sure, your product could be used to train your internal sales teams, but let's focus on just converting customers. Then you can expand to some of those other use cases. I, I, and I mean this, like for, this is obviously like some kind of small company or startup,
[00:42:58] Hatti: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Elle: about that?
[00:42:59] Hatti: [00:43:00] I would agree because they have their U cases really clearly defined in their tab section, but the homepage, I feel like if they speak to the fact that, you know, for example, I know that pmms that I've spoken to. are literally switching from other interactive demos to GE Flow And I'm like, well, tell me more.
Like why et cetera. 'cause I'm always curious. I always want to be at the forefront. 'cause I, I coach so many pmms, so I want to recommend tools that are actually good, Right.
And I'm like, my goodness, their homepage could be so much more like Sassier and Boulder. You know, they can say, Hey, you've heard about all the other interactive demos on the market.
We are the one that everyone is switching to because we are like, if you are sick of, you know, low quality buggy,
[00:43:48] Elle: Yes.
[00:43:50] Hatti: product.
Like come. Sell the problem. Exactly. Like lean in and be bold with it. And especially because I met, like I said, two of the guys at [00:44:00] my, like two of the sales guys at my, um, event, and they are French and they are very, very charismatic, like full of personality.
So funny. I'm like, it doesn't translate like the culture of the company from those two guys that I met are just so down to earth. So like up for fun. And it, it just feels like, like you said, it feels to samey, samey, you know, it says like AI based, interactive demos to, and then it speaks to all the different use cases.
And I'm like, do like. The show don't tell for sure. But I would be like fully bold. Like we are the new company on the block. Yes, We're a startup. Like just lean into what it is they are. And this is basically similar to what we were speaking to earlier, Elle around like, if you have your unique differentiator and your personal superpower and you're unfair advantage, lean into it.
Do not hide it. And I think the homepage, at least what's on the, at the top of the fold that we are looking at, it doesn't highlight the real [00:45:00] true differentiator to me at least.
[00:45:02] Elle: Right. Yes, exactly. And I was just gonna say as I'm kind of just clicking through their website, and I don't wanna critique websites, right? 'cause that's not what product marketers do, although we can give some feedback around how they're telling the story on the website. I just feel like when I first landed on the page, I said I am, I immediately felt joy.
And then it started to fade because it seemed like you said like, oh, this is just another same old, same old AI powered interactive demo tool that's probably some cheap, like they made the code with AI in a week and it's, you know, hasn't been versioned and it hasn't been tested and, you know, just not that joyful experience that, that I was hoping to have.
But it sounds like the product really does give you that.
[00:45:50] Hatti: That's it. Exactly. It's, again, it's a perception play. It kind of links nicely to what we, we were speaking about
earlier. Yeah. It's a [00:46:00] perception play.
Again, it's like being a fantastic PMM, but your perception is completely off. And it's the same thing here because, and I, this is why I want to use it as an example 'cause I've been in the product l I've like, I've been in the product and I have test out so many different interactive tools that I know that this is quality stuff.
Like I was like super impressed. It has like this Scandinavian feel to it. Like if anyone knows about Scandinavian like furniture and like the
aesthetic. yeah.
And when I was, is so good quality. And when I was in the product I was like, my goodness, I was, I was like, this feels like Scandinavia. This feels like good quality.
stuff.
And when I saw the homepage, I was like. No, like, it just, the messaging can be improved. Like there are, there is like a ton of room for improvement. So I think you are right Elle, in terms of if they keep, for example, their playful [00:47:00] element, like the playfulness, which again was like this little ducks thing.
It it is actually very much in line with the vibe of the guys that I met in real life. Um, they were very friendly, very funny.
Yeah.
They were just like, where should we go? Should we go to like pizza? Should we do steak? And I was just like, I will give you any recommendation. You like, dude, because you guys are funny.
yeah. So I think like, like putting the playful nature with the fact that they have personality, they're extremely good quality. They're used by all of these amazing organizations. And just sharing more of that take and I would say go bold with it. I just, yeah, I, I would, I would
[00:47:41] Elle: I love it. Yes. Oh, okay. Guide flow. We love the product, we love your playfulness, and we want to see more bold, playful messaging.
[00:47:52] Hatti: Yeah, for sure. Big
[00:47:54] Elle: Okay. But shout out, you guys are on the right track. Um, everyone, I'm, we gotta iterate along the [00:48:00] way. so Hattie, one thing I always try to do on this podcast is to make room for gratitude.
Um, so I'd like to move on to our, a moment of gratitude. Uh, because in product marketing, none of us get here alone. Obviously, you have a ton of clients who relied on you to, um, help reshape and reform their experience as a PMM. And I know myself, I've had so many mentors from people who didn't even realize that they were mentoring me to direct managers who were making it an effort, like to actively mentor me.
So, I wanna thank you for your time and effort to do this episode today and to share your expertise. so thank you so much for being here and, and doing that. and then before we wrap up, I wanna turn it over to you and, um, we'd love to hear any pmms that have helped shape who you are and the amazing Hattie, the PMM.
Um, give them a shout out
[00:48:54] Hatti: Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me, Al. This has been an absolute pleasure and I want to shout [00:49:00] out
my previous PMM colleagues who joined Tempo after I was brought in, and they've been exceptional people, like truly, and I've actually made lifelong friendships with a few of them and. Just working with exceptional pmms really allowed me to uplevel myself in ways that I had no idea that I could do in a short space of time. right.
It is just, it's just been such a blessing, especially since I had that micromanager who really started off the, the sequence of events and the adventure that I had there into a way that I thought wouldn't end positive positively. But the pmms that I've worked with directly have been exceptional, including my manager, even the VPs, like just, my goodness, I have such good friends now, out of it, and I want to shout out some, like Eric Holland.
I want, like, he's, he's amazing, you know, part of, we are not marketers and he's just, he's just been such a good friend and yeah. I just, I, love that man to
[00:49:59] Elle: I, [00:50:00] I'm a big fan and uh, obviously a big fan of the show and everything.
[00:50:05] Hatti: Yeah. Um, yeah, he's just been such a big supporter. I think we vibe on a completely different level where we understand in the space of product marketing being like an influencer.
I guess a lot of people think we come from a place of like narcissism or a place of Yeah. Or a place of like wanting to, I don't know
be in the spotlight when actually what we're truly doing is just like what you are doing Al you're putting other pmms at the, at the forefront and at the spotlight and trying to move the entire product marketing, you know, division or industry forward beyond what is like the very generic utopian
[00:50:42] Elle: It's the I can't gate keep this. Right. Exactly. I hear an amazing product marketing story and I'm like, people need to hear this. It's
[00:50:50] Hatti: Exactly. Yeah. And your podcast has been amazing. That's why I'm just like, so grateful you've had me on, because I've been like a huge champion of product marketing you. Yeah.
Because
[00:51:00] what You are doing. I really have. Yeah, because I think, I dunno if You remember, but I reached out to you when you announced like your
first episode.
[00:51:07] Elle: know. And I was so flattered and just beyond. I was giddy,
[00:51:13] Hatti: Aw, stop. I was giddy to speak to you. 'cause I'm, I'm a huge fan of people owning their life, of leading into their superpowers, of doing whatever the heck you wanna do. If you wanna create a podcast, go for it, girl. Like, I'm here for you, I'm backing you, you know, I want you to thrive. Yeah.
And I think what you've done has been exceptional.
So, you know, I want to thank you for being a absolute game changing person who's leading the way. You know, you are bringing these like amazing quality conversations to product marketing and it's just been groundbreaking. So Yeah. I want to Thank you.
I want to Thank a couple friends who have become. Like they were like PMM friends, but now they've become actual friends like Louise Dunn and the [00:52:00] BNIs.
Yeah. you.
know, well, it used to be like they would just come to my events and now we go to spas together and brunches and
dinners.
[00:52:07] Elle: it. Yes.
Isn't that the best?
[00:52:10] Hatti: It is the best. It's the best, honestly, where I can speak to them about, you know, dating in the London scene and they can be like, oh, I'm married, and I'll be like, oh, well you're so lucky.
I'm joking. You know, we're
[00:52:21] Elle: conversations transformed from, what do you think about this messaging? What's the customer pain points to check out this date that I went on? And
[00:52:33] Hatti: Exactly. Going from like frameworks to like, does he work?
I'm joking, but I love it a hundred percent.
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
So fun. So fun. And uh, finally, I would like to really thank all of my clients, like every single one of them in all capacities from big companies like Amazon Mirror Meta. Uh, to small startups who are just like kicking off their [00:53:00] career.
Everyone inspires me so much. It gets me up in the morning working late at night. They're all incredibly smart individuals. And Yeah.
I just, I love product marketing to the depths of my soul. And I think a lot of people, when they consume my content on the, like the first time they start to see my content, they probably don't realize how much I really truly care about product marketing.
Because, you know, at the start of this conversation, I kicked off that I had built out my company you know, for six and a half years. And it was literally that company that changed my trajectory of my life in ways that I had no idea. So product marketing to me was a salvation because one thing that I don't actually tell a lot of people was I actually built that company when I was homeless.
And for a year straight. Yeah.
for a year straight. I was living out of a suitcase in a bin bag because I don't have the best relationship with my family. And for a sequence of events, it led to that. And I'm like, now in hindsight, I'm like, it was the best thing that ever happened. Thank God it happened. but product marketing was [00:54:00] literally a salvation.
And the more I think about it, I could probably cry, so I don't want that 'cause you'll get good ratings. I'm joking. But, um, you know, having that for
[00:54:09] Elle: Oh.
[00:54:09] Hatti: El um, but Yeah.
like, um, my goodness, Yeah.
Product marketing literally was like my, my breakthrough away from poverty into a life that I couldn't imagine for myself.
And that's again, a reason that's brought me back into my faith. And I would obviously thank God for everything that's, that he's done for me. But. yeah,
the ability to help other pmms, uh, live out their dream life like I have has been like, honestly like an absolute blessing. Um, and that's why I'm just so thankful that you are here today and yeah.
I presume you're
gonna clip this and put this on TikTok, but honestly I just, I think it's good to be vulnerable.
I think it's okay to be vulnerable and especially since I care so much, and if product marketing can change someone's life in a way that they didn't know or it can [00:55:00] change their kids' lives, you know, El for example, you have two amazing kids. Like, if it can change your kids' lives from the decision of, okay, well they have, you know, they have to go to a specific school to now we can put them in a school that we want, or we can go on holiday to a place that we want, as opposed to what we can afford.
It's just like if I'm able to play even the smallest part in someone's. Career, whether it be they're just in the product marketing world or they're 30 plus years in the game, which a lot of me come to me from that world, which is wild. But I think it's 'cause they see some sort of confidence in me that they can borrow.
And I'm like, let's do this, let's crush it. which is funny 'cause one of my recent clients, he joined me, he's much older. One a person who I didn't think would ever want my coaching, but he was like, I want to end my product marketing career with a bang. He was like, I want to have true impact. I want, I want to have a level of impact that I will be so happy when I retire.
And I'm like, dude, let's do this. Let's go.
[00:56:00] So Yeah. I just love product marketing to the depths of my soul. And Yeah, Thank you for, for having me.
[00:56:07] Elle: Yeah. And we're so lucky to have you that such a cheerleader for others and, and a true coach who is able to help someone take that superpower and harness it to have that impact. so thank you so much for sharing and for being vulnerable. And I'm such a big, um, believer of his plan is greater than our plan and it's so funny how something, some, yeah, something that is meant for you, we'll find you even no matter how long it takes.
so I'm glad that it, product marketers.com found you,
even though you found, even though you founded it, like.
[00:56:48] Hatti: Right? Exactly. So true. So true.
[00:56:51] Elle: Oh, and then my last question for you, Hadie, is, um, where can we access your expertise? Obviously we've got product marketers.com, [00:57:00] we've got LinkedIn. You know, if someone wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way?
[00:57:04] Hatti: Yeah.
I would say the best way is jump into my dms on LinkedIn. Follow me there. I have my YouTube channel as well, where I go into depth on specific areas of product marketing, have my profitable PMM challenge. So I'd love everyone to come and join it.
Just see what it's like. Yeah.
I feel like it's gonna be groundbreaking, so for a lot of people, more than the hundreds that I've already put them through, you know,
so like just.
Jump in, try it. But also I have my group coaching and my inner circle coaching, which is for higher level pmms. Yeah.
Of different seniority. So Right. now I have PMM employees in there. I have employees who want to become freelancers or do consulting work on the side. Really ambitious pmms who come to me.
I think it's because they see what I'm doing and they're like, huh, I can learn from this lady. Because, you know, bear in mind Al, I only, I only created product marketers.com and launched it at the end of January. So maybe like seven months [00:58:00] ago. Yeah.
And now I'm considered, you know, a known name amongst PMM consultants and coaches who've been in the game for years and years and years.
So I'm always about like, how can we use the highest leverage ways in order for you to build up your career, get to your goals as quickly as possible? That's, that's why I was able to be all of the C-suite roles in my twenties and now in my thirties doing this. So. Yeah.
I would just recommend, if you want to find me, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on YouTube.
I'm always down to chat. I'm always down to voice note, so ping me a message and uh, Yeah,
[00:58:31] Elle: we'll definitely link everything in the show notes for everyone. one last shameless plug for join the PMM challenge.
[00:58:38] Hatti: Yeah, do it, please.
[00:58:40] Elle: And thank you Pam, and listeners for joining us on this adventure today. I hope today's episode leaves you with inspiration to take the next step in your own journey.
