The PMM Summit Series: Coaching Hour with Yi Lin Pei

You're a product marketer trying to level up your career, but every time you open LinkedIn, it feels like everyone else has the perfect resume, the perfect job, and the perfect story. Meanwhile, you're tweaking resume bullet points at midnight and second-guessing every single word. On top of that, you feel stressed at work and you're not sure how to get help. Here's the brutal truth: most PMMs never actually get real feedback on their resume, their messaging, or their career direction. We're all just guessing what hiring managers care about, guessing what makes us stand out, guessing whether our stories land or fall flat.

Well, that guessing ends today. I'm thrilled to share this very special episode because we're kicking off a brand new miniseries featuring some of the biggest voices in product marketing. Welcome to the PMM Summit Series. Our very first guest is the one and only Yi Lin Pei, renowned PMM coach, career strategist, and one of the sharpest operators in the field.

Yi Lin has 15 years of experience in product marketing, with the last four dedicated to ambitious product marketers who want to level up their careers. She's helped more than 300 PMMs all over the world, from getting hired in as little as 30 days to helping them onboard with confidence and get promoted within months. If that weren't impressive enough, she also teams up with some of the most adored products for PMMs as an advisor to companies like Navattic. She's also rated as one of the top 25 marketing voices on LinkedIn by Exit Five.

Today, Yi Lin's tackling the real PMM conundrums that keep you stuck, including how to transform your resume from boring task list into compelling career story, plus we're sizing up the messaging strategies of giants like Gong and Outreach to uncover what actually makes positioning work.

Your Resume Is a Movie Trailer, Not a Documentary

First up, resumes. Yi Lin brought insights that genuinely hit home by reframing how we think about these career documents. Imagine your resume as a movie trailer, not a laundry list of everything you've done since your first internship. It's a spotlight on the most impactful scenes of your career reel designed to make hiring managers itch to learn more about you, not a comprehensive archive of every project you've touched.

We dissected real-world PMM resumes and dove into what actually works. From clean design to pinpointing relevance for each specific role you're pursuing, Yi Lin's tips were pure gold. It's about articulating who you are, the skills you bring to the table, and most importantly, the measurable impact you've made. Nobody cares that you "supported cross-functional teams." They care that you drove a 40% increase in pipeline or launched a product that became the fastest growing in company history.

From Overloaded to Empowered: Real PMM Challenges

We tackled heartfelt listener challenges, starting with Josh, who's drowning in tasks after his PMM team downsized. Yi Lin's solution was brilliantly practical: prioritization through a matrix of impact versus effort. By categorizing tasks this way, Josh can have focused conversations with his manager to align on priorities and explore delegation instead of just accepting that everything is urgent and important.

Then there was Elena, wrestling with gaining strategic recognition whilst drowning in a sea of tactical task requests. Yi Lin offered her insights on the crucial transition from transactional PMM to partnership-focused strategist. Building bridges, genuinely understanding team needs, and showing up as a strategic ally rather than an order-taker is what separates PMMs who advance from those who stay stuck executing everyone else's priorities.

Cracking the Messaging Code: Gong vs Outreach

We threw the spotlight on AI-driven platforms Gong and Outreach to break down what makes their messaging actually work. Gong positions itself as the "operating system for revenue teams," moving beyond just call recordings to a broader, strategic role that encompasses the entire revenue operation. Outreach champions "AI revenue workflow," putting a premium on sales productivity and efficiency gains.

This segment revealed the importance of a strong, unique point of view and articulating how your solution is the hero your audience actually needs. It's less about "who does it better" and more about "how do we stand apart in ways that matter to our specific audience." Both companies succeed because they've moved beyond feature lists to owning distinct strategic positions in the market.

The Real Work of Career Growth

Being a successful PMM isn't just about juggling tasks or ticking boxes on project plans. It's about the mindset you bring and the genuine connections you build along the way. Yi Lin's insights prove that the PMMs who advance are the ones who think strategically about their own careers with the same rigour they apply to product launches.

To the PMMs out there navigating career moves and market challenges, know that every stumble, every leap, and every triumph is a step in your unique journey. The difference between feeling stuck and actually advancing often comes down to reframing how you present your value, setting boundaries around what you'll accept, and building partnerships instead of just completing tasks.

So, keep writing your career story with determination and authenticity, and remember that strategic thinking about your own trajectory matters just as much as the strategies you build for products.

LINKS:

Resources:

Product Marketing Resume Sample

Guide to Enhancing the PMM+Sales Relationship

Product Marketing Prioritization Process Newsletter

Messaging Critique:

Gong: https://www.gong.io/ 

Outreach: https://www.outreach.io/ 

Connect with Yi Lin:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/yilinpei 

Website: https://www.courageous-careers.com/

Connect with Elle:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/

• TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:41] Elle: So picture this for a moment. You're a product marketer trying to level up your career, but every time you open LinkedIn, it feels like everyone else has the perfect resume, the perfect job, and the perfect story. Meanwhile, you are tricking resume bullets at midnight and second guessing every single word.

  [00:00:58] And on top of that, you feel super stressed at work and you you're not sure how to get help. Most pmms never actually get real feedback on their resume or messaging or their career directions. We're all just guessing. Guessing what hiring managers care about, guessing what makes us stand out, guessing whether or not our stories land or fall.

  [00:01:18] Totally. Well, that guessing ends today. With that, I'm so excited to share today's episode with all of you because it is a very special episode. We are kicking off a brand new miniseries featuring some of the biggest voices in product marketing. Welcome to the PMM Summit series, brought to you by the Product Marketing Adventures Podcast, and our very first guest For this special edition, I could not be more thrilled to be teaming up with the one and only Yi Lin Pei renowned PMM coach, career strategist, and one of the sharpest operators in the field.

  [00:01:55] You guys, yin has 15 years of experience in product marketing. With the last four [00:02:00] dedicated to ambitious product marketers who wanna level up their careers. She has helped more than 300 pmms all over the world from getting hired in as little as 30 days to helping them onboard with confidence and get promoted within months.

  [00:02:17] And if that weren't impressive enough, she also teams up, with some of the most adored products for pmms as an advisor, to companies like Nevada. She is also rated as one of the top 25 marketing voices on LinkedIn by Exit five. Yi Lin, welcome to the show.

  [00:02:35] Yi Lin: Well, thank you so much for having me here. I am so excited to be here and what an introduction. I hope I live up to the expectations of everyone.

  [00:02:44] Elle: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Thank you for being here. okay, so for today's episode, we have three parts. The first part is going to be write my Resume. The second part is the Coaching Hot Seat, and the third is, as in all of the episodes, of my podcast, the messaging critique. And that one is, uh, the company will be chosen by the product marketing community.

  [00:03:05] So very exciting there. So, hey listeners, from positioning yourself to navigating your career, to sharpening your fundamentals, this episode is packed with guidance and this is your PMM Summit series Coaching Hour. So let's get into it. The first segment of our show is Rate My Resume. and we've got a real mid-level senior PMM resume here, so it's totally anonymized.

  [00:03:32] Personal details have been removed, and we're going to walk through it line by line with our expert PMM Career Coach Yin. Okay. So yin, I'm really excited for this. I feel like every single time you pop up on LinkedIn with a resume tip I have, and I'm sure all of our listeners have this, like, oh my God, I've been doing it wrong all this time moment.

  [00:03:53] and this is gonna go so much deeper than a social media post. So, I guess to get us started, walk us through the resume that, was [00:04:00] submitted to you with some first impressions and what's working, what's not, and what stands out to you immediately. 

  [00:04:06] Yi Lin: Yeah.

  [00:04:06] Thank you so much for even bringing about this topic because you know, we have had a really rough year, uh, to be honest, when it comes to product marketing, hiring, and job search, right? There's so many things from macroeconomic conditions to AI changing how people hire and know what the needs of hiring, and so a lot of folks are having a lot of trouble getting jobs, and resume is one of the most requested things that people come to me for help on because it's sort of the thing that gets you in the door.

  [00:04:34] Right. Like if you don't have a resume, you can't literally get the interview. Um, but I feel like before we jump in the interview, the one thing, uh, that the review, I will have one, just one thing to kind of quickly clarify with people, which is what is even the purpose of the resume? Because I think there's a big concept, misconception.

  [00:04:49] A lot of people think a resume is something you showcase all your skills and your experiences. It's a place that's supposed to capture everything in your life, but it's not. A resume is really more like a movie trailer. It's supposed to show highlights from your past experience that's most relevant to the interviewers, right?

  [00:05:09] And then when they read that resume, they will be hooked just like a movie trailer, and then they would wanna go and talk to you. So that is so important and this is really key because it means you don't have to have everything you've ever done in your entire life on your 

  [00:05:24] Elle: What a, what a great, uh, metaphor to compare it to, right? Thinking of your resume as a movie trailer, it's a little bit more exciting too when you think about it that way. so let's get into it. What, can you show us the resume?

  [00:05:38] Yi Lin: Absolutely. So I'm going to, uh, share my screen right now, and as you've mentioned, this is a sort of anonymized resume from a real candidate, somebody in my job search program who graciously volunteered to have their resume?

  [00:05:53] reviewed. So I'm gonna pop it up on the screen right now and lemme know if you see it. 

  [00:05:57] Elle: We can see it. 

  [00:05:58] Yi Lin: Okay. perfect. [00:06:00] So I'm just gonna quickly scan through this resume, um, so people can have a moment to just kind of quickly look at it, look, look at it, if that's okay. 

  [00:06:08] Elle: Yeah. 

  [00:06:08] Yi Lin: Okay, Perfect.

  [00:06:10] So this is like a pretty standard resume, you know, with a, uh, short. Summary section describing who they are, and then it gets into a few experiences they have.

  [00:06:22] Um, at the top there is a product marketing manager position, then there's a senior product marketing position, and then there's a product marketing specialist position. Right. And then go into their education, uh, as well as, uh, some additional information from their skills and community. So pretty standard and straightforward resume in terms of layout, which I find to be actually very easy and effective in communicating, um, their background.

  [00:06:48] so. How do I review a resume, right? Because, you know, I was talking to you about this earlier, and, uh, we're discussing, well, we can really go on for hours discussing every single nitty gritty detail about a resume.

  [00:07:01] Um, so what are the most important things that hiring managers really looking for when they are coming onto the resume? Right? Here are a few things I really care about when I'm looking at a resume. Number one, is it easy to read, right? If it's not easy to read for me to scan, it just, it doesn't give me a really good experience.

  [00:07:18] There are a lot of candidates out there who have two column resumes or resumes with a lot of fancy design that is okay if it's very clear, but a lot of times if those designs clutter the resume and makes it really hard to read, I Would try to avoid those kinds of designs.

  [00:07:34] Elle: Would you say that this resume is very clear in its design? 

  [00:07:38] Yi Lin: Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I personally just prefer text based resumes that's very clean with one column layout. Again, it can vary a little bit right from design perspectives, but to me, a good resume has a high level summary statement. And I think this is really important to have this statement up here because it's sort of like the headline of like a [00:08:00] homepage, right?

  [00:08:01] you want that first?

  [00:08:02] sentence to create the biggest impact for why you are the right person for the job straight away. Instead of having, you know, the hiring ed manager or the recruiter do like a lot of digging into like, why are you even applying for this role, right? So this really sets the context upfront and then jump straight into the experience and then just ending with educational background and just some additional skills that could be useful and helpful. I've noticed a lot of people, for instance, include sections like. Key competencies, right? And they would list a ton of different bullets up front about like, you know, positioning, messaging, product, launching, all of those things. I personally don't find those things to be very useful because that's not differentiating at all.

  [00:08:43] Right? Everybody can have those things. Those are the things you push to the end or delete all together. 

  [00:08:47] Elle: yeah, yeah. So you mentioned, sorry, and so I'm just gonna recap this for a minute. You mentioned the design just the design being clean. You recommend a one column layout, and then you recommend a very standard approach with the summary, the experience, the education credentials at the bottom.

  [00:09:06] I think at the top of the, of the segment, you mentioned that there were three kind of big things. is that what you meant? Did you mean it like, in terms of like the segments on the actual resume itself? Or are there more, I guess like rules of thumb, rules of thumb, general guidelines that you would follow?

  [00:09:24] Yi Lin: Yeah. so I have a few other guidelines to follow. There's actually six things on my list. So Yeah.

  [00:09:31] we can go through them if that's, uh, okay. Um, Yeah, so we just went through the design, right, which is just like high level, you know, how does this appear right at a high level. Second is really about targeting.

  [00:09:44] Is it very clear? What this person is targeting, right? So when I'm reading this resume, I wanna get a sense of what level they're targeting, what kind of background do they have? Are they targeting specific domains, right? Where they might have competitive differentiation, [00:10:00] right? Just because as we know as product marketers, the more targeted we are, the better it's gonna be.

  [00:10:05] So when I look at this resume, right, those are the kind of key things I'm looking for. Um, when I'm reading the summary statement, I wanna look for any industry experiences that might be relevant for my industry. I wanna look at the type of skills they're talking about That might be the things that, I'm really looking for in the job that they're going after. and also, when I'm reading about the different jobs they have from their past experiences, I wanna see whether these companies are similar to mine, right? Both from a domain perspective as well as from a size right stage perspective or things like that. Mm-hmm. 

  [00:10:42] Elle: so we can jump right into that question if it, if that's okay. And get back to your list. So the question that I have is around taking up real estate on the resume itself to give context into the role that the candidate is currently in or has previously been in.

  [00:11:02] So for example, if you worked at a, small company, um, maybe it's at a hundred million a RR, maybe it's in the like ad tech space. Like I'm making all these details up, but it gives context into the. Company, the size of market that maybe it has the market category that gives context to the hiring manager, the recruiter, that sort of thing.

  [00:11:26] do you think it's a wise decision for candidates to actually give real estate on your resume to that information when already I know, I know. I've personally experienced feeling like I don't have enough information on the, or I have too much information on the page already. What are your thoughts on that?

  [00:11:42] Yi Lin: It's such a Great.

  [00:11:43] question. I am all for it because that context is so important to help you stand out and make your resume relevant. And so for companies where nobody knows what that is, right, or people who are not familiar with the company you were at previously, I think is helpful to really define it [00:12:00] and provide a short and succinct sentence.

  [00:12:02] I actually have some examples to show you from a sample resume, which will actually make available to anybody who's listening later. as an example, right? This will be like one, I actually show people as an example. Let's say.

  [00:12:14] you worked at a startup that is a series B SaaS startup. and it's a FinTech solution, right?

  [00:12:20] That's very important information because if you're applying for another startup in FinTech, it would be helpful to have that statement because it signals to the hiring manager, oh wow, this person already have that experience, right? And this is also where you can maybe reposition and rework the statement a little bit to make it even more obvious to the hiring manager why they might be relevant.

  [00:12:40] As an example, maybe the company you're applying to is an AI product or has a very specific AI angle. You might even say, Hey, the previous company I worked at has an AI power product, right? By calling those things out specifically, that's going to significantly improve the relevance of the resume. 

  [00:12:56] Elle: Yes, I think that actually goes along really well with the targeting aspect that you were just walking through. And I can tell you, me as a hiring manager, I like having that context. It's helpful for me to see, I mean either way, if I see something on your resume that I really like, I'm gonna go look you up.

  [00:13:14] I'm gonna go look at your LinkedIn. I'm gonna go check out the company that you worked at anyway, but it's still helpful to have. okay. So you talked about, hierarchy on the page. You talked about simple design. You talked about is your resume well targeted? What's next on your list?

  [00:13:29] Yi Lin: Great question. So the next thing on my list is from top to bottom is, is really the summary statement, like how you need to be writing the summary statement. So just having a summary statement in my view is that's not enough, right? It's, you have to have a really good summary statement. So what are the things that are really important to have in the summary statement?

  [00:13:48] In my view, there are four things. number One write

  [00:13:52] the exact title you're targeting, right? So if you're going after a senior product marketing manager position, it's probably helpful for you to just say, [00:14:00] I'm a senior product marketing manager upfront. Uh, believe it or not, I've had people applying for different roles.

  [00:14:05] Like let's say they're applying for senior product marketing manager, but they're not saying that they would say, I'm a marketing leader, I'm a go-to market specialist, Or I'm a PMM. right? But That's not aligned with the title you're going after, right. So it's kind of Like you need to tell people who you are right away. 

  [00:14:20] So the, and the second thing is, to make sure you're highlighting the most relevant skills that's aligned with the job description that you want to target. So let's say the row is very focused on go to market product launches or more outbound.

  [00:14:32] stuff. What you Want to state in that summary statement should be more focused on outbound versus.

  [00:14:37] everything is focused on inbound or things that are completely not related to what the job is really asking for.

  [00:14:43] The third thing is to mention any unique differentiation that you have, right? Because again, you want to stand Out from

  [00:14:49] the crowd and make it really clear to the hiring manager why you might be the best candidate for this position. So let's say the job asks you.

  [00:14:56] to, uh, have experience launching AI products in FinTech, and you have that exact experience.

  [00:15:02] You want to put it upfront and bold it probably right? To say, Hey, I have experience launching AI powered FinTech products, right? So just call it out, don't bury The, lead. 

  [00:15:12] and the last thing I was gonna mention, just to close off this summary statement, is to really think of quantifiable outcome.

  [00:15:19] Again, you don't have to mention so many different outcomes, but it might be helpful to state at least one outcome in the summary statement just to show the level of impact or the level of magnitude. As an example, if you're applying for startup, it might be good for you to say you have influenced, directly influenced, maybe eight digit, you know, million or, you know, tens of millions of dollars, Right. In pipeline. Whereas if you are, are applying to a really large company that might, that number might be hundreds of millions or even billions, Right.

  [00:15:49] In pipeline, just depending on the size of the business. That magnitude, again, signals fit, right? Because I've had candidates who are applying to early stage startups, but they were citing the [00:16:00] experiences from Google.

  [00:16:01] And I'm like, that's impressive, but it's not relatable at all for an aerospace startup, right? They don't need somebody to have launched a hundred million product. They need somebody to have launched from zero to 

  [00:16:12] Elle: Yes. Yes. I love this all gets back to context and targeting that we talked about. And I'm sorry I interrupted you. Was there one more thing you wanted 

  [00:16:21] Yi Lin: No, no, no. I think that's the key, right? Like everything we've discussed so far is how do you make sure whatever you are stating on your resume is truly relevant for the role you're going after. And and the best way to. think about it is reverse engineering, right? Don't think about yourself first.

  [00:16:36] Think what the company needs and wants, and then what you need them to say. Right? Because a lot of times people develop their, their, their resume. They're like, oh, here's what I bring to the table. I'm just gonna list everything I have without tying back to the actual job 

  [00:16:49] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh my gosh. Yeah. And you can so easily get overlooked for a position that you might be perfect for. so you mentioned something that I planned on asking you about anyway, so I'm just gonna go for it. So you talked about putting in the summary one big metric or quantifiable outcome. and we might get into this when we get into the more the experience and you know, maybe we don't have time to rewrite every single bullet point of this particular resume.

  [00:17:15] But, when we talk about metrics, and maybe this doesn't go in the summary, and this could, this could be a question also relevant to the experience section on the resume itself. But, I think one area where product marketers specifically struggle in is talking about. the metrics, like what metrics should I be, be including if I don't own them outright, there may be a shared metric.

  [00:17:39] what's the right way to display that on my, on my resume?

  [00:17:43] Yi Lin: Yeah.

  [00:17:44] such a great question. And, and to be honest, it's a hard one to answer, right? Because we don't own metrics to your point, right? So most of the things we have to state are going to be metrics that are shared with other teams. in my view, the best metrics to state on the resume are related to [00:18:00] business metrics because ultimately everybody understands business metrics.

  [00:18:03] That's what's important for the business at the end of the day, right? So think, you know, revenue pipeline or more top of funnel type of metrics. And the way I would state it would be to be very honest and say I have indirectly influenced these amount of pipeline, I influenced these amounts of, revenue, right?

  [00:18:21] And that would be enough in my opinion. What matters Is stating upfront, when it comes to the actual experience you're talking about, making sure it's very clear how you influence that. That's the part that's generally missing when people are listing the experiences. And we can definitely talk more about that

  [00:18:36] when we get there. 

  [00:18:37] Elle: Ah, okay. Very helpful. I like that approach a lot. so it's all about influence, which is so much of a product marketer's role anyway. okay, so back to your list. We talked about, the design, the simple design, the layout. We talked about the summary, and I loved your formula that you gave for how to write a great summary.

  [00:18:56] what's next? Yeah, 

  [00:18:57] Yi Lin: yeah, absolutely. um, what's next?

  [00:18:59] is really the bullets. So I have a few things I want to talk about when it comes to writing the actual experiences for the bullets specifically. the formula I follow when creating a bullet is to make sure each bullet can stand on its own. It's related to one very clear responsibility of a product marketer and that it composes of these three different parts.

  [00:19:21] Number one, what it is, what is that particular core skills or or responsibility? Number two, how did you go about doing that? And then number three is the, what's the outcome, right? So as an example, I actually think this person, this candidate's second bullet, follows that framework quite well and it's pretty good, right?

  [00:19:41] So if we read, what this bullet is saying is, I'm just gonna highlight it in case people can't really see clearly rebuilt core positioning and messaging around customer pain points and value pillars. clarifying differentiators and improving narrative consistency across the funnel, which contributed to [00:20:00] measured measurable gains in pipeline velocity by two x.

  [00:20:03] Steel conversion by 3.5 x and expansion revenue of XX million dollars. Right. So this follows actually that exact format, which is what it is, which is positioning and messaging. And then it says how this person did it, which is by understanding customer pain points, turning that into value pillars, right?

  [00:20:23] And differentiation, and then creating narratives around it, which then delivered all of these metrics. 

  [00:20:30] Elle: if you were, reviewing, let's say this resume right here, 

  [00:20:34] is this too weird and like not a good use of space? What if each bullet point was hyperlinked to an example on a portfolio, on like a digital portfolio? 

  [00:20:44] And it said like, see example here.

  [00:20:46] Is that like overkill or is that like now let's just keep it simple and stick to the black and white.

  [00:20:51] Yi Lin: It's a really good question. I do think it's helpful and, and possibly a good idea to test it and see what happens and if people even click on those links. so my immediate reaction is it might be slightly overkill because as you know, right, we review so many 

  [00:21:08] Elle: Yeah. 

  [00:21:08] Yi Lin: as hiring managers. 

  [00:21:10] You right, you probably won't click on everything.

  [00:21:12] You might click on one or two things. So in my view, if I were to include it, I might just include hyperlinks to the most marquee projects I've done because I wanna create the best impression. Right? The challenge with linking everything I've noticed from product marketer is that To be honest, right, they just can't maintain the level of quality if they link to everything.

  [00:21:32] Like I'd rather see one absolutely amazing project that you've knocked out of the park than three mediocre projects, which would actually dampen my interest in you, to be honest. Right? So that's probably what I would say.

  [00:21:45] If you are highly confident, your projects are just absolutely amazing, right? And and above everybody else's projects, I would include it, but if you're not sure. 

  [00:21:55] Elle: not sure. 

  [00:21:56] Yi Lin: them. 

  [00:21:56] Elle: Yeah. So true story. I actually had a candidate [00:22:00] do that.

  [00:22:01] Yi Lin: love this. Tell me more. Yeah. 

  [00:22:04] Elle: I did click on it because I had never seen it before. 

  [00:22:07] I was disappointed though, because it's funny, you're right. The examples were not great. 

  [00:22:12] I liked the concept of it truthfully. 'cause I was like, oh, they're putting the proof right here. And then I clicked on it. Now. I think honestly, just the way that they put together the portfolio maybe wasn't strong enough.

  [00:22:24] but anyway, 

  [00:22:25] Yi Lin: Yeah, 

  [00:22:26] that's one of the most common questions I get is about showcasing their projects right through portfolios. it's actually a big module. I actually covering my job search program as well. And to be honest with you, one of the first things I tell people is be sure whatever you're including is of high quality.

  [00:22:43] Because sometimes the portfolio can do you a disservice. Like, I might have actually progressed you through the interview if I didn't see your portfolio then if I've had seeing your portfolio. Right. 

  [00:22:53] So, 

  [00:22:53] Elle: is so true. Yes, it can actually 

  [00:22:56] Yi Lin: Right. Absolutely. So what I generally tell people is don't show the portfolio super early on, but show a project that is most relevant for the hiring manager after you've talked to the hiring manager. 

  [00:23:08] and actually this happened to me. So I was hiring a candidate in my past job and I had a candidate who I interviewed who was really great, but when I spoke to him, he just seemed like he was more juniors, you know, in terms of experience. I had other candidates with more experience. So I said, you know, I'm gonna pass on the candidate.

  [00:23:26] but then after a couple of days, the candidate sent me an email to say, Hey, I really enjoyed our conversation. I understand That maybe I didn't fully present myself that well in terms of my experience, but I remember from our conversation what you mentioned about needing more competitive intelligence for whatever you're trying to build right at the company.

  [00:23:44] And in fact, I actually am sending you a project where I did some competitive intelligence and I actually did some messaging comparisons as well. I want you to take a look to see if it might be relevant. I opened that thing. It was one of the most impressive competitive intelligence projects I've ever seen.

  [00:23:58] Right. 

  [00:23:59] the person did [00:24:00] an actual analysis of our key competitors. They actually used SEMrush and did a whole bunch of even traffic analysis of keywords analysis and everything, and made real suggestions about how we can improve our messaging. I was like, oh my God, I can take this right now and use it.

  [00:24:16] Of course, I re-interviewed the candidate and hired him and he's like my, one of my star performers and we're still very good friends today. 

  [00:24:22] It's 

  [00:24:22] Elle: Wow. Okay. So fortune's in the follow-up and that candidate was hungry for the opportunity and it shows, 

  [00:24:31] Yi Lin: absolutely. So less is more. Right. And only show when you feel extremely confident you wanna 

  [00:24:37] Elle: Yes. And, and again, context and targeting, because even in how he followed up, it was, well, there was, the context was there, it was well targeted. okay, so back to your list. I feel like I keep taking us down these tangents, so what's next in your list?

  [00:24:51] Yi Lin: I think what's next really here is to, once you have done all the bullets, right, and, and following that format, make sure the bullets line up with, with what they're asking for in the job description. In general, I think about four types of experiences you wanna make sure you highlight. To have a balanced product, marketing, like a full stack product marketing profile.

  [00:25:12] You wanna make sure your experiences. some of your experiences, talk about inbound work. For instance, research, right? Customer research, market research or competitive research. You want make sure they talk about positioning and messaging, storytelling because again, that's key. You wanna talk about product launches, go to market, right?

  [00:25:31] Outbound as well as enablement. If you're working for a B2B company, talk about sales enablement, customer success enablement, field enablement in general. But if you're working more for PLG or B2C type of companies, talk more about working with, the demand generation team campaigns, right? Or product activations, onboarding and things like that, that might be more relevant.

  [00:25:53] So make sure you have a breadth of different things that you can cover, because sometimes I notice people might have very good experiences, but [00:26:00] it really skews one direction, right? It might just be like a lot of different product launches. I'm like, you don't need three bullets. I'm talking about three separate product launches. that's kind of 

  [00:26:09] repetitive, right? But what might be 

  [00:26:10] missing? They're like, oh, I just need to show these amazing marquee projects because in my mind, these are the most brilliant things I've done. I'm like, that's great, but again, relevancy, did you talk about something else that's relevant for them, but you don't have, right.

  [00:26:23] So that's important to make sure when you scan that the impression you're giving is that this is a balanced candidate who has a food stack product market experience, and also in the areas where we need the most help. 

  [00:26:36] Elle: Yes. Okay. So last question for you on this topic. It sounds like best advice would be to customize a resume for each job that you're applying to, to make sure that it's truly targeted and has the context needed. But like, is, I guess what I'm asking is, is it better to keep your target companies.

  [00:27:00] Similar so that you have less versions of your resume or do I like create version after version, after version after version of my resume? Which one do I do 

  [00:27:08] Yi Lin: such a great question. Such a great question. You answered yourself. Yeah. And so what I tell people to do? is, because you have a really good targeting where most of your companies, the most companies you're reaching out to generally have a similar profile. You could have one base resume, so I call it like the master, the mother resume Or whatever you wanna call it, right?

  [00:27:28] Where you basically have all the things in there, the most important information and everything. And then for each job you will create a tailored version. But you should spend no more than 30 minutes max to tailor it because you already have the base resume that should match 80 to 90% of what the job is looking for.

  [00:27:46] Elle: Based on your targeted, 

  [00:27:47] Yi Lin: based on your target 

  [00:27:49] exactly. Where people have this problem with customizing is when they are not targeted. If you're targeting one company that is one type and then another one that's drastically different. [00:28:00] Of course you're gonna be spending hours rewriting your entire resume.

  [00:28:03] That is absolutely not effective nor efficient in landing the jobs you want. So again, step number one before we even talk about resume is targeting and then base resume, and then customization. 

  [00:28:15] Elle: This is such a cool breakdown. I think this is so, so helpful. so I wanna underline that I'm of impression that I'm leaving with, um, as we wrap up this segment. And that's let, your resume should not be a list of tasks. It should be a signal that you curate based on the context and targeted content that you put into your resume.

  [00:28:38] And it should showcase how you think, how you communicate, how you drive impact through the skills that you've accumulated as a product marketer over your career. is there any, like, last, any lasting things you wanted to mention before we wrap up the segment?

  [00:28:53] Yi Lin: I mean, you've covered it. Whatever you just said, that's exactly it. I think that's the most important thing. just think about the resume as the movie trailer. reverse engineer, think about what they want and then how your experience fit in. Right. And then apply the techniques and tips we just mentioned.

  [00:29:10] Then you're good to go, basically. 

  [00:29:12] Elle: I love it. So huge thank you to you for walking us through this and to our anonymous PMM for being brave and letting us use their resume. This is super valuable. Um, alright, so we're gonna move on to the second segment of this special edition podcast episode. This segment is called The Coaching Hot Seat.

  [00:29:33] so yin in this segment we are gonna take a look at real challenges that were submitted from pmms around the world. and I believe these were submitted specifically for this podcast episode. Is that right?

  [00:29:46] Yi Lin: That's right? 

  [00:29:47] Elle: Yes. Okay. so ahead of this, uh, podcast, Elin and I, mostly Elin scouted through the product marketing world and [00:30:00] real product marketers submitted their challenges that they're facing every day, but either in their careers or in their job search.

  [00:30:08] And Elin spent tireless hours scouring through the submissions to select what she felt like were gonna be the most useful to the, to the broadest group. So. Here's how this is gonna work. In this segment, I am going to read, two different scenarios, and that was submitted by our listeners. So I'll read the first one, and then Elin, you can give your, guidance or coaching as if you are in a real one-on-one coaching session.

  [00:30:36] With that PMM, anything else you wanted to add to that?

  [00:30:39] Yi Lin: No, I think that?

  [00:30:39] sounds perfect. Since we don't have the other PMM here to respond back to me, I think we're gonna be responding back. We're Assuming what the,

  [00:30:47] Elle: Assuming what they would be asking and saying a little bit of role playing. Okay. So our first, our first listener is Josh. So let me read what Josh submitted. He said. I am completely overwhelmed. This year we went through multiple rounds of layoffs. Our PMM team went from seven people down to three.

  [00:31:06] Now it feels like everything is falling on me. My VP of marketing doesn't have a product marketing background and keeps tossing random requests at me. Sometimes things that feel completely outside my scope. On top of that, other teams keep pinging me for one pagers and urgent requests that don't seem aligned with any strategy.

  [00:31:24] I honestly don't even know what my priorities are supposed to be for next year. I feel burnt out, confused, and like I'm letting everyone down because I can't keep up. What should I be doing? How should I get out of this? Poor Josh? I feel like I've lived the same PMM life before. Um, I bet many of our listeners have too.

  [00:31:42] So, Ely, where do you even begin with someone who's experiencing something like 

  [00:31:46] Yi Lin: Yeah, I mean, this?

  [00:31:48] is a tough one, and I feel for Josh, because this is unfortunately so common this year. Many pmms have been going through the same things again, with the same things we talked about earlier, right? The macro macroeconomic environment, [00:32:00] teams cutting back and just wanting each person to do a lot more.

  [00:32:03] And on top of that, if a VP of marketing or CMO doesn't really have that background, they just kind of dump everything on PMM, who seems to be the catchall, right? For 

  [00:32:13] Elle: Yes, exactly. Yes. It almost feels like two separate challenges, but I'll let you kind of, you know, state your expertise here.

  [00:32:21] Yi Lin: No, no, no. I mean, this is a good discussion, uh, for sure. And I agree with you. I think it's multi-layered. so the way I think about it is the first thing is to really figure out how to resolve the short term pain that Josh is feeling, right? Let's kind of quickly, uh, reduce some of the burning things, that that's basically the day in and day out, doing the work and getting burned out.

  [00:32:43] How do we do that? And, and to me that's really about prioritization. What I tell people when I work with them is to literally list out every single project they're working on, no matter how small, right? Requests from other teams, projects your boss has given you and everything, and, and list them out and then categorize them into four different categories based on impact.

  [00:33:05] Versus effort. So this is something I actually kind of created just from by myself, but really it's a pretty well known product management framework called the Action Priority Matrix, right? So basically if something is high impact and high effort, then it's a big rock, or what you call major project, right?

  [00:33:25] Where you really have to dedicate a lot of time to work on. and also it might be helpful for you to break that project into different phases and show results in different phases. Because for these big projects, I find where people get they struggle on is they don't even know where to tackle it 'cause it's so big.

  [00:33:39] Or they spend forever working on it without showing results, right? Instead of, instead they need to be building rapport and visibility across the project at different points in that timeline. The second category, which are, in my opinion, my favorite category, are quick wins. So high impact projects that's tied to the goals.

  [00:33:55] A low effort, right? So it's like maybe creating that highly sought after case [00:34:00] study that sales teams really want, right? That's gonna make so many people happy and win. that's gonna be really great, where they wanna really spend the time working on. And then of course, there are the lower part, low impact things, right?

  [00:34:10] The low impact that doesn't take a lot of time, and the low impact that takes a lot of time, neither of which are really great. So in those cases, they might be delegate clarifying boundaries, finding other things like AI to help them do certain work.

  [00:34:22] But the goal would be to remove as much of those projects as possible from their plate, or automate as much as possible. But what I find

  [00:34:29] is when people start listing down all of their projects in that worksheet and putting them into these four categories, they realize a whole lot of them, at least 30%, are in that low value category, right? That they can then figure out how do they package this and communicate to their manager, which is step number two is figuring out how do you tell people like, Hey, these are the things I believe are the most important for the business.

  [00:34:54] And here are the things that I think we can find additional resources to work on. The way I think about reframing those things is to really focus on finding solutions for how to deal with that problem instead of going to your boss with those problems. Right? you know, it's not helpful to go and say, I can't do this work because I'm overwhelmed.

  [00:35:14] As you can see in my list, I have too much. 

  [00:35:16] Elle: Yes. Yeah, it makes you look really junior. It makes you look like an order taker when you come to them with a task list and say, look how long my task list is. Oh my gosh. I had a PMM on my team once who, when I first, I joined the company and he was on the team that I acquired when I joined the company.

  [00:35:37] And um, that's how he operated. And you could tell that's what was modeled for him. He was like, oh, I have too much on my plate. And he'd show me this list of stuff. And I'm like, you don't need half of these things. So anyway, just wanted to validate what you were saying about, um, the way that you communicate your priorities based on value and impact, I think is so meaningful and helps you speak with [00:36:00] more confidence and will help establish trust from your superiors and manager, I think as well.

  [00:36:06] Yi Lin: Absolutely. And I think you raised a really good point that the task exercise, the listing of the task exercise is for you, but you don't wanna bring to your boss a list that is definitely not the right way, right? So the, so take that list, but then turn that into a strong narrative that's tied to the priorities, right?

  [00:36:24] Say, Hey, you know, boss, as we're coming close to Q4 or we're starting Q1, I've thought about how do we spend our time in the best way possible to drive the most value for the company? And here's what I put together in terms of major initiatives that is tied to our goal, right? From, you know, the exercise I've been working on, here's the list.

  [00:36:45] would you work with me and we can work together to confirm what, what are the top three to four priorities in your view? Work with them to verify those things, right? And then say, okay, that's great. given These are the priorities, right? Here's some other things that are, left on our plate that we can do

  [00:37:03] Here's some options. I have laid out for how We can still do those things, right? Or delegate them or whatever other options you have, right? To get them down and then you can, say, here's different trade-offs of the different options, right. Perhaps it's delegating to a different team. perhaps

  [00:37:17] it's communicating to these different places who request these things. that is not, now maybe we have delayed those things and perhaps it's buying a software that's gonna help.

  [00:37:28] replace a lot of the manual labor, right? But then when you have those things, now it becomes a solution. It's about choice versus, Hey, I'm complaining about my work, basically. 

  [00:37:39] Elle: Yep, yep, yep. Exactly. Okay, so let me just kind of recap this for a minute. You. think about all of the projects, everything that you have on your plate, and you do this exercise, that matrix that you talked about with impact and value. And you do that for you. You use that to come up with your narrative, to how you're going to talk about [00:38:00] basically your priorities with your manager and talk through that together.

  [00:38:04] what's left after that?

  [00:38:06] Yi Lin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So one of the things that's really important to think about is how do you make sure. Crazy, random requests don't come your way in the future, right? Because a lot of the work you're given is not given by your manager, to be honest. Right? It's from other teams. You have sales pinging you, Hey, I want one pager.

  [00:38:25] You might have a laundry list and the backlog of ten one pagers 

  [00:38:29] Elle: yes. Oh my gosh. I right, of one pagers. Yeah.

  [00:38:33] Yi Lin: right, right. Or, or like, you know, product team asking you for some random stuff or support team asking you for FAQs or anything. So you're getting all these different, uh, requests from different places.

  [00:38:43] So to me, it's also, uh, important to create rules of engagement with these different teams. Make it very clear how would they can request help from you. what does it look like for you, right? How do you need to communicate when you get those process? So you're creating that level of transparency with them to say, Hey, this, these are the things we, I, I generally look at when I am thinking through what are the things to work on?

  [00:39:06] And then making sure you're communicating back with them to. Set the right expectations for when something can be done or if they can be done at all. And that way you're setting the right expectations so you can remove a lot of those unnecessary work, uh, and this burnout for you in the future.

  [00:39:22] Elle: I really like that idea. And I, I love how you're encouraging pmms to set the boundaries and to talk about how they're going to, add value, uh, with their stakeholders and their peers and their, you know, supervisors or superiors, et cetera. with the rules of engagement, I know me now, I feel very confident in myself and I, I feel confident setting those boundaries.

  [00:39:47] Me, 10 to 15 years ago, I think would've had a really hard time. So like, what are some, like for our maybe, softer, more junior pmms out there who are listening, who really [00:40:00] want to set those boundaries, but maybe don't quite have the confidence yet. Um, what are some scripts or like what are, how, how can you help encourage some of those pmms to still set those boundaries or strengthen that muscle a little bit?

  [00:40:14] Yi Lin: Yeah. Such a great

  [00:40:15] question. You know, I think it would depend a little bit on whether that, uh, you're trying to set the boundary with your own manager, your team, or versus a, an outside party, right? A third party, like a, a sales team, um, stake cross functional stakeholders. I mean, when, when it comes to setting boundaries with your own manager, hopefully you have a good rapport, first of all, because it's really hard to set a boundary when you don't have a, if you're in a toxic relationship with your manager, unfortunately it's very hard, right?

  [00:40:42] But assuming. You guys are in a decent relationship. You respect your Manager um, they're there to support you and whatnot. One of the Best reframes I learned early in my own career, is when I'm, trying to state what I'm thinking about and what I'm looking for, um, I try to state it from a place of curiosity by asking questions.

  [00:41:03] instead of trying to, you know, push my own agenda or like judge whatever the situation might be.

  [00:41:10] Right? So Let's say one of the scenarios we discuss, we discussed before you even jump on the podcast was, um, let's say your manager.

  [00:41:17] you already prioritized with your manager, and then they come back later and say, Hey, by the way, here's some other stuff, 

  [00:41:25] Elle: yeah. 

  [00:41:25] Yi Lin: not on a list. What, 

  [00:41:26] Elle: all the time. 

  [00:41:27] Yi Lin: which Happens all.

  [00:41:28] the time. A hundred, a hundred percent. What do you do at that point? You'll be like, I so, angry. Like, I'll be very angry. They say, but you already. We've already prioritized this, why are you adding more? Right. That that's a level of judgment. But instead we can say, okay, well let me take a step back and I say, Hey, you know, thanks for sharing these things my way.

  [00:41:45] Right? I'm just kind of curious, how would this change our priority? Would our priority stay the same? Would, do we have some time to look at, re-look at our priority given this new things you've given? You've shared my way, right? There's no judgment there. It's pure questions. Just understand [00:42:00] and hopefully that allows you to create a dialogue with your manager to discuss, oh, wait a minute.

  [00:42:04] Actually, you're right. By throwing you these two projects, we would have to de tie something else, right? That's one way of dealing with it. 

  [00:42:13] Elle: that's, so, yeah, so reframing it so that you're, you're coming at that conversation when you're setting the boundaries with a sense of curiosity, wanting to better yourself, wanting to be, um, you know, having accountability. I think that's a really smart way to do it, to maintain that relationship. 

  [00:42:32] Um, is there anything else, Les, with this particular with, for poor Josh, who's in this scenario?

  [00:42:38] Any, any last, any last words of wisdom you wanna send off to him?

  [00:42:42] Yi Lin: Um, I feel you, Josh, and, uh, you're not alone. And, and I will say this, Right.

  [00:42:48] you, I definitely give the B steps a try, like all the things we've just mentioned on the podcast here. But if after trying all of those things, you are still super burned out and you're not getting the support you need, just remember to not to remember like you have a life outside of work, and then consider if this opportunity is the right one for you to be honestly, right?

  [00:43:10] Because the, I I'm of the belief that no job is worth killing ourselves over, right? Our health, you know, our mental health, our physical health and everything. So make those decision for, for yourself boundaries that you cannot cross, right? Like, you cannot prioritize your way.

  [00:43:27] Out of a structural problem 

  [00:43:29] Elle: That's 

  [00:43:30] Yi Lin: and a leadership problem as a company, at some point, no matter how much of this work you do, you just, you're not the right. place, in which That's right. you make the call to move on. 

  [00:43:39] Elle: That is so true. I'm so glad you said that because at s. There are those situations where it's something you can't fix. It is out of your control. And when you realize it's outta your control and there is a misalignment between that and your values and how you just wanna operate your life, it's not worth it.

  [00:43:59] It's just a [00:44:00] job. 

  [00:44:00] Yi Lin: Yeah, 

  [00:44:01] Elle: a job. Leave.

  [00:44:03] Yi Lin: a hundred percent. I think that's a great, and to our segment here. Yeah. 

  [00:44:08] Elle: Yeah. Okay. Well, there's one more 

  [00:44:09] response that I wanted to walk through. So this is from, and it kind of goes along with this, um, conversation around like leadership and, and relationships. Um, so this is from Elena. So Elena writes, I'm in a really tough spot. My leadership team, especially my VP and chief product officer, don't really understand product marketing.

  [00:44:29] My ideas get shut down without explanation, and I feel like I have to justify why PMM should even be involved in strategy, product and sales only come to me for launch assets or one pagers. I want to be seen as strategic, but I feel invisible and dismissed. I officially feel seen. Elena, I have been there.

  [00:44:47] Let me just say, uh, but Ely, how do you coach someone through something like this?

  [00:44:51] Yi Lin: Yeah.

  [00:44:52] This is again, a very common scenario and I feel for you, right? Because one of the common things people also ask is just around how do I become more strategic from being tactical and, you know, going back to the first prompt or, you know, segment that we were talking about. Product marketing has the added challenge of having to demonstrate its own value and telling people what do I do?

  [00:45:14] Right? Most companies don't, most of other fields don't have to. You don't have to. An engineer does not have to explain what I'm doing. What is the role of engineering, right. A product manager doesn't have to explain that either, but a product marketer have to explain to people, this is what I do, this is what I don't do, basically.

  [00:45:30] Right. So so a lot of times, unfortunately, you have the job of setting the right expectations with people and also building that rapport because chances are, unless these people or where you are, is a very large established company, most people in this roles, they haven't really worked with product marketing that much or know how to work with them.

  [00:45:49] So if we want to be seen in a different light, generally we want to under generally the first step is to understand what do these people actually care about and want. [00:46:00] Right? so it's kind of like, you know, the, the. There's a sun. True saying in the art of war, right? It's like, know yourself, know other people.

  [00:46:07] Right? Like first 

  [00:46:08] you need to, right. I know, right? It's like you need to know the other people and what they think about and what they want and then you know what you can deliver for them, right? And then you say, okay, that's how I can solve the problem for you. You know, it, it, so last year I actually wrote a guide about how to develop best relationship with sales and how do you become a trusted lead, you know, partner with sales and move yourself from like, being very tactical to being a respective partner with sales.

  [00:46:35] And so I actually talked to sales leaders as part of my process and most sales leaders, they said, to be honest, I just don't feel like product markets care about sales. Like they don't understand the sales process. They have never been a back carrying rep. They have never jumped into a tense situation with a client to understand whether whatever they're sharing with, you know, have is gonna work at all.

  [00:46:59] Right. So how can you ask for respect from sales when you have never really shadowed them or 

  [00:47:06] Elle: Wow, that is so in insightful. And for pmms who for the most part we talk about our empathy 

  [00:47:16] and how like we wear the, we wear it's, we wear the customer's shoes, but maybe we ought to try on the sales leader shoes 

  [00:47:23] Yi Lin: A hundred percent. Yeah.

  [00:47:25] Like if you go in the day with the stay of the life of sales leader, just ask them, Hey, I, I, do you mind if I actually even shadow you on some things? Right? Like, I don't think how, I don't think many PMs would ask that even Right? But I think people would be very open, like a sales leader would be open, like, oh, wow, I've never been asked, but sure.

  [00:47:40] Let me show you what my day's like. Right? And then you realize the amount of stress and pressure they're under. And, and here's the thing, like it is hard to work with sales. Like I have, you know, my first job was enabling enterprise sales, like a 50 plus enterprise sales team that were selling multimillion dollar deals in real estate.

  [00:47:55] And then at a moment's notice, we would have to fly, you know, to like, uh, 5,000 [00:48:00] miles away Right. On deal or something like that. And when you go into their daily lives, you're like, oh my God, this is so stressful. No wonder my 50 page slide deck on, you know, positioning or what sales talk track is not gonna work for them, so, 

  [00:48:13] Elle: Yeah. Right. 50 slides, sometimes a hundred.

  [00:48:16] Yi Lin: I know, right So, and then, so when I, when I when you dig in, right? You gotta understand, okay, whatever you're providing them in terms of materials has to be extremely on point, succinct. Sure. And second is you need to be a product champion and product expert. Because if they, if you give them information that is even remotely inaccurate, they would look really bad in front of their, their prospect and that you would, lose product, uh, you know, credibility, right?

  [00:48:41] So, but when you focus on those things, those individual things, and do them super well, and you deliver to your partner, you're gonna be invaluable. And then over time, they're gonna invite you to their table. They might call you up and say, Hey, Eileen, I have this deal. Can you help me think through, right, what this would look like?

  [00:48:59] Or like, l we actually have a deal review right now. Do you want to join? Because I think the insights you brought on certain 

  [00:49:04] Elle: I would, 

  [00:49:05] Yi Lin: helpful. 

  [00:49:06] Elle: I would love to join deal review. That sounds actually really insightful and interesting.

  [00:49:10] Yi Lin: I know, right? So like, so that's the point. And then you get your seat at the table and, you know, I'm just giving example of sales. But that's true for pretty much every other team.

  [00:49:19] So again, to summarize everything, it's just start with the other party. Who are you trying to build relationship with? Truly understand them, deliver on very few things very, very well consistently. And then eventually your, your, uh, relationship with them is gonna change. 

  [00:49:37] Elle: Yeah.

  [00:49:38] something, you mentioned partnership a few times in how you were explaining, um, how to handle the situation. And this might sound a little crazy, but it reminds me a little bit about falling in love. Not, 

  [00:49:56] Yi Lin: I love 

  [00:49:57] Elle: not, not in a romantic way, [00:50:00] obviously. So let me explain what I mean. So like, for me, and, okay, first let's talk about romantic love.

  [00:50:06] So when something really good happens in my life or something really, really stressful, like the first person I wanna tell is my spouse, my husband, he's my person, he's my partner. but that didn't happen overnight. I didn't just like. You know, it's not like I met him and then it's like, okay, now I tell you everything.

  [00:50:21] Like, no, no. but like people, I think form that kind of connection, like people don't form that kind of connection instant instantly. It happens over time, through shared moments, shared wins, shared stresses, shared understanding. And so if I take that same context or that same idea and put it in that business context, I think like when I have for just rattling off some examples, like when I have like a really good campaign idea for a product launch or I was interviewing a customer and I found, I heard a really juicy piece of intel about a competitor.

  [00:50:55] Like I can't wait to tell my product partner, my sales partner. And I think something that you mentioned, right, like coming to the table with insights with. Coming to them with information that's useful and interesting with their into their world. So I think it kind of starts with what I'm trying to say here is I think it starts with bringing them into your world and, and to have to try to establish some of those, the shared understanding, the shared trust, the shared experiences that not make you fall in love, but like, you know, that make you build a partnership, is what I'm trying to say.

  [00:51:33] So my question to you is like, is that what you're saying? Like that basically a PMM in this situation, so to Elena, like she should shift shift from being a PMM who builds assets to A PMM who builds partnerships? Is 

  [00:51:47] Yi Lin: I, yeah, absolutely. And I think you, that's such a great framing, right? And I'm glad you brought us back to, or sometimes I digress from what I'm 

  [00:51:56] trying to say here. Yeah. I think such a [00:52:00] great way, and I think the analogy with your partner, with your husband makes absolute sense in this scenario. you know, and I think it's, it's listening to them understand their point of view, but then slowly bring them over to your world, right?

  [00:52:10] A hundred percent. one of the things. Just to take the same example, let's say sales come to you to ask for assets, right? It doesn't mean to say, no, I don't build assets. Not a great way of doing that, Right?

  [00:52:21] But you can say, Hey, that, that's great. Let me ask you a bunch of questions. Whenever I'm building assets, these are the things I need or I want, I wanna know about.

  [00:52:28] Then you open a dialogue with them to ask more and then ask, in the process of discussing it, you actually start guiding them. You're literally consulting with them to say, Hey, actually maybe this is not quite the asset you need, right? 

  [00:52:41] Elle: Yes.

  [00:52:42] Yi Lin: And that's where the value add comes in. And then eventually you, they realize, oh, wait a minute, actually 

  [00:52:48] Elle: you are right. I don't need a one pager. I just need a new talk track for this one slide. 

  [00:52:55] Yi Lin: exactly. That's right. So thank you for, uh, sharing that analogy. 

  [00:53:01] Elle: I love it. Um, okay. So I guess when you understand their problems and when you show that you care about their world and you have those shared wins, then people start pulling you into theirs and that's, that's where the magic happens.

  [00:53:15] Um, so Elena, I hope that helps with your situation and, Elin, thanks for these frameworks. They're invaluable, so helpful. And I feel like. It makes me personally feel like I have a better approach to managing some of those tough situations. So hopefully it's helpful to all of our listeners as well. And also, if your idea or your situation challenge was submitted and we didn't talk about it here, you can still reach out to Y Lynn and, 

  [00:53:43] Yi Lin: for sure. 

  [00:53:44] Elle: and get some, uh, get some coaching.

  [00:53:48] also I think you're, you mentioned a couple things. You mentioned the article that you, the report that you did with sales, so if, I would love to link it in the show notes too for, [00:54:00] um, 

  [00:54:00] Yi Lin: Absolutely. Yeah. For each of our segment, I have an asset that I'm happy to share that we 

  [00:54:04] Elle: Amazing. Thank you. okay, now we're transitioning to the last final segment of our show. This is the messaging critique. if you know, you know, so, uh, as part of the, traditional podcast, the Product Marketing and Ventures podcast, we do the messaging critique. Um, so this is where as product marketing experts, we analyze real world messaging.

  [00:54:24] But the fun part for this special episode is that we let the product marketing community decide which companies we were going to critique. and when we asked the two companies that came up were Gong and Outreach. So let's get into it. Okay. So if you don't know Gong, gong has historically been recognized as like the go-to recording customer intelligence platform, like sale think, like sales call recordings, and then Outreach has.

  [00:54:55] Pretty much been hailed as one of the greatest like sales workflow automation tools. but actually as yin and I did our analysis before we're doing this podcast recording, we learned that there are actually a lot more than that. So one thing I wanna note is that, um, this is all about messaging.

  [00:55:10] We are not going to be talking about which product is better. We're not gonna talk about feature comparisons or anything like that. we are here in the pursuit of learning and refining our craft as pm m and so, no negativity. Just a thoughtful, constructive critique. okay, so let's start with outreach. For those of you pmms who want to follow along, um, we are going to outreach.io. Uh, so yin, based on how they present themselves on their website, who do you think their target audience is? Like, who are they talking to?

  [00:55:38] Yi Lin: Yeah, great question. Sales and sales reps, sales ops are probably the people who come up as the main ones, uh, in terms of, uh, who they're targeting, in my view. And honestly, I've had some experience with outreach before because one of my previous companies actually used it and it was bought by the sales team.

  [00:55:59] So I would say probably [00:56:00] sales is their number one persona.

  [00:56:02] Elle: I completely agree. We all, I've also used it in previous companies. it was used primarily as a tool for the sales team, but I as a PMM was helping to create outreach content. So, so that's where I got my taste of it, so I agree. Um, and if you look at their messaging, it seems so like they've positioned themselves as a quote unquote like AI revenue workflow platform, and their messaging seems to be all about execution.

  [00:56:29] And they see the biggest, I guess, like revenue problem if there is one, right? For sales, is to be around like inconsistent manual selling motions. So their focus is all about AI agents that actually drive the workflow. and so my question to you yin is what's working really well with their messaging and how they present themselves to 

  [00:56:49] Yi Lin: Mm-hmm. You know, that's a great question. I would say it's actually quite easy to understand what their main focus is, uh, when it comes to like their key sort of value prop. To your point, I think they're really focused, in my view on productivity and workflow efficiency, right? Because it's, it's everything they're talking about is, it's the end to end sale solution.

  [00:57:17] And they're talk about workflow. Um, they're using words like productivity, right? increase the number of reps hitting quota faster. And if you read down there, it talks about those same language over and over. So clearly their point of view is if the sales team is more efficient at whatever they're doing across the sales stages, right, then you're gonna get higher revenue at the end result.

  [00:57:42] So that messaging in my view is pretty clear. 

  [00:57:45] Elle: think so too. I actually, and I like how you, you pointed out exactly like their point of view, and I think they do a really good job of articulating their point of view on the market, what the customer pain is and, and I guess how that customer should solve their pain. so I [00:58:00] I yeah, I totally agree with you.

  [00:58:01] If you had anything to pick on, what's something you wish the PMM would've done differently? Um, at least in how they present themselves on the website. 

  [00:58:10] Yi Lin: Yeah.

  [00:58:11] Um, I would think more about capabilities that they can highlight and how, because the capability really showcases the how Right.

  [00:58:19] because right now what they're showcasing a lot is the what, and then the end business outcome, right? So if you think about it, the, the value matrix in terms of laddering, it's the features and attributes, it's the capabilities, and then it's the benefits and the business outcomes that's related to that, right?

  [00:58:38] So I feel like it's jumping a lot from just what it is, the feature level, like, you know, the product level and feature level straight to revenue. But what's missing is that middle part, in my view, is that how they do it and how is this better than anything else that's out there on the market, right? Like, I don't understand because all it's saying is.

  [00:58:55] Okay, great. We have a point of view on efficiency is great. We need more efficiency, and how do we achieve that? Basically, it's a bunch of AI agents, but that's what everybody else claims too.

  [00:59:06] Elle: Right.

  [00:59:06] Yi Lin: So then how is it really doing that? What's the secret sauce? That's the part I don't really understand. And related to that, what is the core thing that differentiates them from everybody else that they do better than everyone else?

  [00:59:20] That is missing, again, because when I think about outreach, we probably both know outreach as the enrichment tool for, you know, for outbound, right? So 

  [00:59:28] Elle: Yeah. 

  [00:59:29] Yi Lin: where we buy data. Yeah, 

  [00:59:30] For SDRs. we buy data. We buy less than everything. Exactly. And that's probably still what they're best at in my opinion.

  [00:59:35] Right. Because why would you lose your own competitive differentiation and advantage? But I feel like they completely downplay That Right. It's almost like it's gone from their messaging.

  [00:59:44] Elle: That is so true. You know what? Oh my gosh, this is so interesting because there's a lot of, I've, I've seen some chatter. This is all just chatter on LinkedIn right at this point, but that with ar that like a, uh, BDRs and SDRs are gonna like, [01:00:00] eventually, essentially go away. I don't know how true that is. I don't know how soon that is.

  [01:00:03] I don't think I'm quite plugged in enough to that micro market to know, but that could be a reason why that's gone. And to your point, back to their like point of view around AI agents. but yeah, I totally agree with you and I think like there's something about like demystifying, like AI agents, 'cause everybody has an AI agent.

  [01:00:23] so I, I think there's a little bit more work to be done there. 

  [01:00:26] Yi Lin: Absolutely. 

  [01:00:27] Elle: Absolutely. 

  [01:00:28] Yi Lin: have all these solutions. I'm just, you know, from a 

  [01:00:30] messaging perspective, I'm pointing out, right? Like I'm, I don't know how to solve the AI agent problem, right? They're talking about here, but at least they're sharing their point of view, which is good. 

  [01:00:39] Um. 

  [01:00:39] Elle: like that. Yeah. 

  [01:00:41] Yi Lin: But maybe a little bit more core competency and competi differentiation in their messaging would help.

  [01:00:46] Because again, this, this is, in my view right now, this category is very competitive, to be 

  [01:00:51] honest. Right. And everybody's trying to, trying to, do say similar things. So then what's, why would I choose Outreach versus Gong or 

  [01:00:58] Elle: Yeah. 

  [01:00:59] Yi Lin: if other software 

  [01:01:00] Elle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So making the differentiation a little bit more prominent, maybe bringing in some human language into demystifying that like AI component. Overall, though, I, I think it's solid messaging. It's, 

  [01:01:11] it's really good over overall. Yeah. Agreed. Okay, so now let's jump over to Gong. Okay. Somewhat competitive with outreach in some ways.

  [01:01:20] Some ways they direct comp, they directly compete in other ways they don't. so for those of you who wanna follow along, it's gong.io. Um, so yin, same thing here, based on how they present themselves on the website, who's their target audience?

  [01:01:33] Yi Lin: Still sell in my view. 

  [01:01:36] Elle: Agreed. Yes. Even though pmms use gong 

  [01:01:40] Yi Lin: Right. But you know, and if you think about the revenue centers, right? Like it's sales, who's buying gong pretty much all the time. And then usually they add some licenses for other teams. Um, and you know, we've had similar softwares in the past as well, and it's always been through sales who buy this too 

  [01:01:56] Elle: Yeah, totally agree. And so if you look at Gong's [01:02:00] messaging, they've positioned themselves as like the operating system for revenue teams. And I think this is so interesting in what they're trying to do with that. But um, basically they're saying like, Hey, it's not just a tool tool. It's not just call recording, which is what I've always known them for.

  [01:02:14] Um, but that foundational layer for the entire go-to-market motion. And that to me is, I just really like how they're doing that. but I'm curious what you think, like from your perspective, again, just looking at the messaging, what's working really well in 

  [01:02:26] Yi Lin: mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I also think they have a different point of view, but that point of view is also quite obvious 

  [01:02:34] in my, in my, yeah. 

  [01:02:36] Elle: it is. Yeah.

  [01:02:37] Yi Lin: Yeah. Yeah,

  [01:02:38] So, I'm trying to figure out like, um, whether their, uh, point of view about operating system, I'm not exactly. sure if that is the right word, per se, but it's definitely different point of view compared to productivity alone.

  [01:02:54] Right. And it's almost like this is the brain or like the backbone of the sales team, which has a little bit more of a strategic feeling versus just productivity. 

  [01:03:03] Elle: I completely, and that's why I think it was very strategic and, uh, for them to do, I'm, we're making a lot of assumptions here, but I think it was kind of, I think for Gong that was like a big bet that they did because maybe like, just like us, people see gong and they're like, oh, sales call recordings, call recordings, call recordings.

  [01:03:25] And they were like pigeonholed right into basically being a call recording sa uh, SaaS offering. And they're like, no, we're, we're more than that. We're this operating system. It kind of immediately implies something way, way bigger than that. Um, and you're right, I still don't quite know what it's, but it's certainly something that leaves me intrigued, even though I'm not the ICP.

  [01:03:46] Yi Lin: I totally hear you. Right. Um, and I, I think when I'm reading a little bit deeper into some of the ways, ways they're doing that, it become a little bit more obvious because there is a focus on data and intelligence here. Um, right. Because it's talked [01:04:00] about unifying customer insights and then delivering intelligence with that, right?

  [01:04:04] Because ultimately, if, if you're just having a whole bunch of AI strong together, there's no insights, there's no data, but, but with rich, rich data, that's first party data, right? Like say from your Gone Call recordings, that is extremely powerful because real data from your teams and not just a bunch of AI speaking together.

  [01:04:22] and so going back to. jumping the gun because I know you're gonna ask me what do I want? What? What are the things to 

  [01:04:29] improve, Right?

  [01:04:30] About their messaging. That needs to be much more clear about how is this the brain or the operating system. Yeah. because a lot of the messaging, again, it goes back to something similar, Right?

  [01:04:40] When you read deeper, you're like, oh, again, it's agent this, agent that, another agent. But when I'm reading all of the different things, ultimately I think their core competency and their competitive differentiation is that original code recording feature that enables a whole lot of data and information to be extracted that then powers actual intelligence beyond just workflow automation. 

  [01:05:04] Elle: Yep. I completely agree. Yeah. Um, it's so funny. I think both companies actually have to, they have opportunity to explore more of the how messaging and their, and their differentiation. a little bit more, showcasing it a little bit more. Um, okay. So, these companies play, and I think like, very broadly speaking, like the revenue ops market category.

  [01:05:25] I'm kinda making that up. I don't even know if that's like a market category, but, but, basically both companies want to be like the system on record for. Uh, sales teams like productivity for sales with ai. Right. I said this already, but like, in some ways they compete, in some ways they don't.

  [01:05:44] But I, I guess I wanna wrap this up in like, key lessons for pmms here in terms of like, when they consider how to position themselves against other vendors in, in the same market. Like, what do you think that big takeaway is here?

  [01:05:58] Yi Lin: Mm-hmm. [01:06:00] My view is to really focus on your ICP and be very specific and clear on who your ICP is, and then make sure you are directly speaking to them about why you are the obvious choice to deliver. Right on their needs specifically. The thing is, with competition, all of the stuff, right? It's, it's helpful to understand what competitors are doing and, and even when I, you know, I'm saying like, Hey, use competitive messaging and everything, but at the end of the day, focusing too much on your competition is distracting and not 

  [01:06:34] helpful, right? It, it's much better for you to focus on your customers and your prospects who matter the most, right? And, and then write your messaging in human ways around what they care about. And that's. 

  [01:06:46] Elle: I completely agree with that. Yeah. So, um, and I know we talked a little bit about this as we were kind of, um, in ahead of time trying to prep for this session, but, really for pmms out there, like don't fall into the US verse stem trap, right? Like that's how you get into feature comparison and nobody wants to be stuck in feature comparison with competitors.

  [01:07:06] So you need to think about it as just like you said Elin, like what is the customer's, your ICP, what is it that their pain, their pain is how do you uniquely solve that pain? It's not about how you're, you know, how you do it versus someone else, but how do you do it? And, and this is where it gets back to like gong and, and outreach the how and being able to articulate it in a super human way.

  [01:07:29] and then what are the, what's the outcome of that? What's the benefit of that? And it might be if you wanna do some competitive, throw some competitive in there, you could do that same exercise. For your competitors or for the other vendors in your space. But you have to look at it when you're doing that exercise for those other vendors.

  [01:07:45] You have to look at it as if like you work for that competitor, because that way you're really getting into like the headspace from, you know, the customer's exp perspective, what that, what they're hearing from all the vendors that are out there. so I guess that's kind of the big takeaway for me [01:08:00] is like, you know, how you frame your solution and how you frame your solution is totally different.

  [01:08:05] Like, you know, same thing with like gong and outreach. Um, but yeah. Anything you wanted to add to that?

  [01:08:11] Yi Lin: No, I think you put it beautifully what, what you said about really thinking and putting yourself in the shoes of your competitor and thinking from their point of view, um, right. And that, and then the framing is, it's so important as well. So I don't have anything to 

  [01:08:26] Elle: Yeah. 

  [01:08:26] Yi Lin: That's well said. 

  [01:08:28] Elle: Yeah. And I, I wanna also double down on what, what we learned both with Gong and Outreach, as you pointed out. Like they both have such a clear, strong point of view and it's so interesting 'cause they both play in the same space. They solve, they, they both have customers with the same pain, but they have different point of views on how to solve that pain.

  [01:08:48] One is through like customer data and one's like, no, no, no, it's workflows. It's all about sales workflows. So it's just really interesting I think how you're, both companies do a really fantastic job of, uh, clearly stating their, um, point of view on, on the world. Their narratives are just like really great.

  [01:09:04] So shout out to any Gong and Outreach pmms out there. You got some fans. You guys are 

  [01:09:09] Yi Lin: Yeah, no, I think they all did. And hey, look, we're, we're, we're analyzing their, um, homepage as if they wrote everything, but I'm sure there has been many meetings and back and forth and c-suites coming in, changing 

  [01:09:21] things last minute. Right. That is the, that's the messy part of this, right?

  [01:09:25] So we're, yeah.

  [01:09:26] It's so funny like where we're talking about it, but we all know the pain of working on these projects 

  [01:09:31] Elle: Totally. 

  [01:09:33] Yi Lin: Yeah. 

  [01:09:34] Elle: Yes. And pmms rarely get the opportunity to say, have a say in what goes on a website homepage. So 

  [01:09:40] Yi Lin: Okay. 

  [01:09:41] Elle: caveat, take everything we're saying with a grain of salt. 

  [01:09:44] Yi Lin: Yeah, a hundred percent 

  [01:09:46] Elle: Yes. Okay. So Eila and I always try to make space on the show or, or my podcast for a moment of gratitude because in product marketing we never get here alone.

  [01:09:56] Um, we're always doing it with each other and learning from each other. Um, [01:10:00] so before we wrap up, I just wanna say genuine, thank you so much for sharing your expertise to giving us the, the rating, the resume, and all your resume secrets and tips and, you know, giving Josh and Elena and any pmms out there who are going through tough situations and sharing all of that, guidance was so helpful.

  [01:10:19] We're the PMM community. Lucky to have you. So thank you so much.

  [01:10:23] Yi Lin: Oh, that's my honor. And thank you, uh, they're lucky to have you and, uh, I've absolutely enjoyed our conversation and I really appreciate the value added insights you have in our podcast. Um, and you know, which has made for really rich discussion, so appreciate what you're doing. 

  [01:10:39] Elle: Thank you. Yeah, it's so much fun. We're, I just love the product marketing world is just great. And on that note, I know, um, none of us get here alone, as I stated, and very often we are shaped by the people that we surround ourselves with. So just wanted to give you a chance to give a shout out to maybe one or two pmms who have brought you to where you are today and helped you roone your craft as a PMM.

  [01:11:03] Yi Lin: yeah.

  [01:11:04] Um, there are two people. Number one is my first boss. His name is Deepak. And, um, he was the person who brought me into PMM when I had no PMM background. Gave me a chance to, you know, become one and, train me and mentor me on how to do sales enablement, to be honest. And just really think from that clear point of view.

  [01:11:25] And I think to this date, he's one of the people who I think have the absolute best interpersonal skills on building relationship with other teams. And I learned a lot of those techniques actually from him. Um, so absolutely brilliant leader and mentor. The second person I would like to thank is Martina Chenko, who wrote the book, loved how to, you know, uh. Market products, tech products. And um, so we actually connected on LinkedIn many years ago. I asked some questions, she asked me some questions and just had her informal mentor mentee relationship where she mentored me. And um, [01:12:00] and over time we just became really good friends. And recently I saw her in San Francisco.

  [01:12:04] She's absolutely influenced how I think about product marketing. We talk about product marketing topics all the time, and, um, recently got to do some business partnership together, which is always fun. But more importantly, yeah. But more importantly, um, she's also somebody who, is a important and powerful voice for underrepresented individuals in tech and in product marketing.

  [01:12:26] You know, coming from an immigrant, woman of color background I really resonated with her background. and so just, you know, it's very inspiring. to Kind of going through that journey because, you know, part of, the reason why I like to go on podcasts and share my voice is also to

  [01:12:42] have that voice, right. And, and Have that representation. because when I was growing up in my career and, and sort of being an early career person, I never had role models who looked at me or talk like me, right? People who have an accent And it's okay, 

  [01:12:59] Elle: you to have that. 

  [01:13:00] Yi Lin: people 

  [01:13:01] Elle: confident in 

  [01:13:02] Yi Lin: right. Feeling confident in my voice.

  [01:13:05] maybe I don't have the typical experience of a product marketer, right?

  [01:13:09] But I'm able to, you know, have this conversation with you that's very meaningful. And I wouldn't have been here without people like her setting that example and, and giving me the confidence to do things like this. 

  [01:13:21] Elle: Yeah. Oh, I bet they're so proud of you. 

  [01:13:25] Oh, I can't, I can't wait. I can't wait till they hear that little shout out. 

  [01:13:29] Yi Lin: Oh, thank you. 

  [01:13:30] Elle: Okay, Ely, so this is my last question for you. Where else can everyone access your expertise? Is it bets to find you on LinkedIn?

  [01:13:37] Yi Lin: Yes, absolutely. LinkedIn?

  [01:13:39] is the place I post my thoughts on a weekly basis, usually daily. So definitely follow along and, and if you wanna dig deeper, I have a newsletter where I share more in depth insights and I write once a month, um, uh, about different topics in product marketing. Feel free to go on my website, sign up and if you are okay with putting a link there, [01:14:00] um, for my newsletter, that'll be 

  [01:14:01] Elle: Absolutely, yes. We will link everything in the show notes, don't you guys worry. 

  [01:14:05] Yi Lin: perfect. 

  [01:14:07] Elle: Again, thank you so much, Ely, and thank you PMM listeners for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in your own journey. 

  [01:14:18]