Reposition Your Platform Like an EventBrite PMM
Platform repositioning is messy. You’re changing how the market understands you, how customers experience value, and how your internal teams talk about the product. It’s rarely a clean “new story” moment, rather usually a series of decisions that have to hold up in the real world.
In this episode, I sat down with Jameelah Calhoun, VP of Market Strategy at Forter and a product marketing leader known for blending commercial rigour with deep customer empathy. Over the past 15 years, she has helped build and scale new businesses, reimagine legacy products, and guide companies like Eventbrite and Audible into their next chapter of growth. If you have ever had to reposition a platform under pressure, Jameelah has lived it.
Repositioning Eventbrite During COVID
Jameelah unpacked what repositioning looked like at Eventbrite during COVID, when the events industry changed overnight. Eventbrite needed to expand beyond being seen as a ticketing tool and be understood as a broader suite of marketing resources for event organisers. That meant changing the narrative, but also making sure the product experience and packaging supported that narrative.
Her approach was grounded. Start with the data you already have, get clear on segments, then focus on the highest leverage problems before you start building.
Rediscovering the Path Forward
When I asked Jameelah about her process, she started with existing research and performance data. The goal was to spot where product market fit was soft, where the go-to-market story was not landing, and where customers were hitting friction.
She also called out segmentation as non-negotiable. Frequent hosts and occasional event creators behave differently and need different value cues. If you lump them together, you end up with messaging that feels “fine” to everyone and compelling to no one.
Prioritizing Smart Solutions
Jameelah’s first major task was identifying the highest leverage problem. Where is the biggest opportunity, or the biggest revenue leak, in the journey? That focus shaped everything that followed.
Eventbrite looked across the full customer journey and made targeted changes, including reducing friction in sign-up, revisiting packaging strategy, and clarifying the path to value so customers could understand what they were getting and why it mattered. The outcome was meaningful business impact, including a 40 percent increase in average revenue per customer in just two months.
Building a Culture of Collaboration and Trust
A recurring theme in our chat was internal trust. Jameelah described her partnership model with product and engineering as a three-legged stool. Each leg matters. If one is missing, the whole thing wobbles.
Repositioning requires tight collaboration, not handoffs. The more consistently you engage stakeholders, share what you are learning, and connect decisions back to impact, the easier it is to move quickly without creating internal chaos.
Moving Forward With Insight-Driven Decisions
After identifying the big issues through data and segmentation, the next step was validation. Jameelah talked about running lightweight experiments and focus groups so the team could iterate quickly without committing heavy resources too early.
She also emphasised building an experimentation roadmap. Outline the key business questions. Design tests to answer them. Prioritize by potential impact. This keeps the work focused and makes it easier to explain decisions to leadership.
Messaging Critique: Calendly
To close out the episode, we shifted into the messaging critique, and Calendly is a great one because almost everyone has used it. Their core value is crystal clear. They repeat “scheduling” relentlessly, from “Easy Scheduling Ahead” to positioning themselves as the number one scheduling tool. For first-time users, that repetition works. It removes confusion and gets straight to the job-to-be-done.
The trade-off is that it can undersell what Calendly has become. For more sophisticated buyers, Calendly is not just scheduling. It is integrations, payments, workflow automation, and operational leverage. If the homepage leans too hard on basic scheduling, it risks feeling smaller than the product actually is.
The opportunity is a positioning lift. Keep the clarity, but elevate the promise earlier. Calendly is not just a tool that finds a time. It is a system that protects your time, reduces admin, and keeps work moving without the back-and-forth.
Big thanks to Jameelah Calhoun for the wisdom and the real talk. If you’re navigating a repositioning right now, this episode is packed with practical ways to stay focused, build trust internally, and tie narrative shifts to measurable outcomes.
LINKS:
Messaging Critique: Calendly
Connect with Jameelah:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameelah-calhoun/
Podcast: https://www.unpopulardecisions.com/
Connect with Elle:
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[00:00:41] Elle: Okay guys, so you know this already, but every good story has a hero's journey. And I know it's cliche, but I'll say it anyway. The journey matters just as much as the destination, and the same is true in product marketing. Today's episode is about how repositioning and existing product is really about redesigning the journey.
[00:01:03] Not rewriting the ending, and my guest today is going to blow you away with how she and her team redefined and repositioned an existing product by following a hero's journey. With that, it is my pleasure to have Jameelah Calhoun on the show. Jameelah is one of the most strategic product marketing leaders in the business.
[00:01:23] Let me tell you why. Jameelah is currently the VP of market strategy at Forter, and she's one of those rare leaders who sits right at the intersection of commercial rigor and deep customer empathy. Over the last 15 plus years, she's built and scaled new businesses, reimagined legacy products, and helped companies find their next chapter of growth at companies like Eventbrite, audible, American Express, and more.
[00:01:48] She's led everything from zero to one launches to major repositioning efforts, consistently using pricing and packaging, brand narrative, and product like growth to unlock real results. And [00:02:00] if that weren't enough, Jameelah just launched a new podcast called Unpopular Decisions, where she brings on guests who've made bold moves against the status quo to live more authentic lives.
[00:02:12] And before you ask, yes, of course, we will put the link in the show notes. Jameelah, I am so thrilled to have you here.
[00:02:18] Jameelah: Thank you so much El this that was such an incredible intro. I'm like, oh my god. You know, like,
[00:02:24] Elle: I'll just follow you around and like
[00:02:25] Jameelah: but like,
[00:02:26] Elle: just, of course, I'll just follow you around and be your hype man.
[00:02:30] Jameelah: I love it. I love it. Yeah. I need you in my back pocket, uh, anywhere I go. But I'm thrilled to be on and, and excited for the conversation.
[00:02:38] Elle: Yes. Well, let's jump right in. So by the way, congratulations on your new role at Forter. It's very
[00:02:45] Jameelah: Thank you.
[00:02:47] Elle: So I know you are onto bigger and more exciting things nowadays, but take us back to your days at Eventbrite for this conversation. And maybe just some super quick context. I can't imagine anyone doesn't know what Eventbrite is, but just in case for listeners who, need to be brought up to speed.
[00:03:06] Jameelah: This is a great opportunity for me to practice our new positioning.
[00:03:11] Elle: Yeah,
[00:03:12] Jameelah: But um, Yeah, for those who aren't familiar, Eventbrite is an all-in-one ticketing and discovery platform where organizers of events can really connect with attendees who are looking for exciting things to do, in their area. And it's a full suite of tools that help organizers grow from the actual payments and ticketing tools to marketing tools that really help them amplify their business as well.
[00:03:41] Elle: Very cool. And what I'm so excited about is that we get to talk to you about how you led them, make that big transition in the positioning, for the company. So, uh, so for today's topic of repositioning and validating those, whatever existing product offerings do exist, we're gonna [00:04:00] talk through everything from packaging and pricing to, to journey maps and, and how that should take priority.
[00:04:05] So for the first segment of our show, um, I want to start with that case study. So tell me what was going on at Eventbrite when you joined and you realized that, oh, okay, we need to take a look at this.
[00:04:18] Jameelah: Yeah, well, I'll take folks a little bit on memory lane. There was this thing called COVID. Um, I know we have blocked it from our memories, um, as much as possible, hopefully, but, um.
[00:04:30] Truly, it had a seismic impact on the event industry, and this was a time where the whole world changed the way we interacted, the way we went to events.
[00:04:40] And so there was really an opportunity and a need to reposition the company as more than just the ticketing tool to really welcome organizers back into the events business, given that they had had to make. Big pivots to even keep going during the pandemic or perhaps to completely pause. So this was a moment where we needed a new story to tell.
[00:05:05] It couldn't be that we kind of went away for a while and then came back and it's exactly the same as we were before and the product wasn't the same. This is where the idea of expanding into our marketing tool suite for organizers. Really came from that. We wanted to not just be about ticketing, but start to solve more problems for them along their kind of product cycle and, and their business cycle.
[00:05:31] So my job coming in was to turn that idea of a marketing tool suite into a real profitable offering. This was an upsell product that was really going to be important to deepen our relationship with our customers through increasing the user penetration rate, improving the attach rate, and ultimately making sure that that usage of the product translated into more ticket sales, but also a [00:06:00] better perception of the value that the whole platform delivered.
[00:06:04] so. I basically came in to, uh, about six months after the product had launched, but it was not gaining as much traction as leadership really hoped. so this was a moment where I had to take a step back and figure out what may be at the root of some of the kind of slow adoption that we were, uh, seeing.
[00:06:25] And basically I kind of led a learning agenda and partnership of product with our market research team, with our design teams to go deep into the data and research to understand actual user behavior. And it really came down to packaging and friction in the signup journey as the crux of it. I'm probably boiling down like tons of.
[00:06:47] People's hours of work into like one sentence. But, but Yeah.
[00:06:52] it was really, really interesting, um, to, to think about where were the highest leverage areas that we could make a difference in. so as I mentioned, I basically worked to a product to influence the roadmap and change it so That we went back and fixed some of the foundations fixing the packaging strategy, simplifying the user journey.
[00:07:12] And reducing friction in the communication of the suite of products and their value. and with all of those efforts, we were able to increase our average revenue per customer or ARPU by 40%. really changing that package distribution. We were able to increase our trial starts by five x and a RR doubled, during this period as well.
[00:07:38] And this is just in two months. so we really had one of those magical moments where the product release happens and we're watching the graph and it's like, do, do, do product release, boom. Like,
[00:07:49] Elle: That
[00:07:49] Jameelah: so it was really, really exciting and just really increased the confidence of the entire team that we were onto something great and we could continue to [00:08:00] refine it to meet the moment and meet our customers where they were.
[00:08:03] Elle: I just have to call out for a minute that you did this in two months because it feels, it feels almost impossible, especially, especially at a really big company like Eventbrite, like I would, or, or, you know, any big company. I would, my expectations would be that there'd be too many hands involved and too many, you know, but it, it really speaks to, I guess, the trust that you guys had in each other to move quickly, and we'll get into this, I know, but the extent that you went to, like, validate your hypotheses and you know, how quickly you were able to do that.
[00:08:41] So I'm really excited to dig in. To all of that stuff.
[00:08:45] Jameelah: Same. And again, I'm boiling down the work of so many teams, but to your point, like there really was just such strong belief in this product that people were really ready to invest in it and to experiment. And so having that trust built in, having that kind of same shared destiny kind of built into the way that we were collaborating, really helped us to move quickly.
[00:09:10] And of course, like those first two months, we made some of the bigger impacts. But like this was a journey that continued over, you know, probably a year afterwards just continuing to iterate and learn. But again, this was like The first big
[00:09:24] Elle: The early big reso. The early, big results. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. And it's interesting because when you're in an environment where you have a product and it, it's been around for not too long, and the growth has kind of plateaued. There could, there are so many ways that you could go, you could be, you could jump into the assumption of like, we need to feature the crap out of it and start building things.
[00:09:48] You could go down the, oh, we need to change the price. You could, there's just, there's so many things to explore here. So, let's talk about how you found the path that you found. So, I, I guess for this, as we dig into [00:10:00] this, let's start building that playbook. So, if I'm a pm m and I'm, you know, I, I'm in a similar position where my product has kind of plateaued and I need to figure out where to go next.
[00:10:10] what was step one for you? and then maybe talk through an example for how you did it at Eventbrite.
[00:10:16] Jameelah: Yeah, so I think the first step is always to go through the existing data and research that you have, uh, especially with. A new kind of lens. Fresh eyes. Give yourself and the team an opportunity. Even though you may have been a part of the journey of building it originally, of doing the original market research, now that you've seen the results in market, there's an opportunity to go back and look at the information with a new.
[00:10:44] Mindset. and you know, a lot of times people wanna rush into doing fresh new research, but there's a lot to be learned from what you already have if you apply the right lens to it. So I went and looked at our product analytics, our cancel surveys. we had kind of the original market research that led us to believe in this, uh, opportunity and that there was this need in the market, which had a lot of really rich, nuanced information about what problem the event hosts were really trying to solve.
[00:11:15] This was all important information and what I. Really discovered through this step were a couple things. One is that there was a big difference between frequent hosts, those who are hosting the weekly comedy show or daily comedy show, versus those who maybe host like one big Halloween Bash, um, every year, right?
[00:11:37] And, and so events is just this very unique space that has different behaviors like that. so that was, you know, treating the journey and treating these customers the same. wasn't really working, between those two groups. Uh, and the second piece that really came out of this step was the fact that we had [00:12:00] many drop offs in the user journey itself.
[00:12:03] So a lot of people would be interested, they were hitting the screen to learn more, and they were excited about the product. But then through the signup experience, there were many pieces of the funnel where we saw quite a few people dropping out.
[00:12:17] Elle: Hmm. Okay. So your step one is, let me just look at the data that we have that's available in terms of product usage and customer journey. And I guess for you, I. It sounds like you were just trying to get a lay of the land to determine what were the red flags that were jumping out at you as where to start to kind of maybe dig in a little more.
[00:12:40] So, I'm hearing that you found some like sub-segments or use cases and that, for example, your frequent versus infrequent users. and then also following the customer journey to figure out things, you know, where people were falling off. Is that something that, like if you were starting fresh somewhere, would you continue to look at those?
[00:13:02] I'm just calling 'em two different, angles to look at. One is just kind of like the data about the product usage and then the other is to like follow the customer journey. Is there anything specific that you were looking for in that, or you were just kind of like, let, let me just see what's there.
[00:13:17] Jameelah: Yeah, well I.
[00:13:18] think one of the things to keep in mind is when you're having a situation where something's kind of stalled out, there's usually something about the product market fit that, or, or go to market that missed the mark. So that can either happen way at the top of the, of the hypothesis of the need that you thought you were solving.
[00:13:37] So that's why I really like to go back to that original research to understand like what to. Problem did we think we were solving and is what we built still solving that. As you guys know, like sometimes after many iterations, many trade-offs, what actually ends up in market may end up being slightly different than the original kind of idea that you guys thought of.
[00:13:58] So I think [00:14:00] like validating that is a really big piece. The other piece is it really comes down to the whole journey of like who is actually saying yes to this product and what can we learn from that? And then who's saying no to this product either because they cancel and drop out of the bot, the very bottom of the funnel.
[00:14:18] They signed up and churned, or they're just like interested but not making it through the journey. And what can you learn about those two different groups? The people who are saying Yes, tells you something about your product, what's working? why were they so motivated to maybe get past the friction in the journey?
[00:14:37] That can tell you a lot. And then of course, who didn't make it through? Like, what are the groups who have interest, but like we are doing something that's made it maybe a little bit too high of a hurdle rate for them to, to really sign on or stay on.
[00:14:50] Elle: yes. Yes. What an interesting insight. Okay, so your step one was to look at your existing product data and the customer journey and possible even by segment, if that's possible, or by use case. Um, what's next? So, after you kind of, it sounds like you did, that, you found these, I'm, I'm calling 'em red flags, I don't know if that's the right word, but you're, you're calling 'em some red flags that maybe are indicating to you where the problems are.
[00:15:15] Like what do you do next? Now that you've identified that.
[00:15:18] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:15:18] I mean, as you, you guys all know like resourcing is always tight, and so it's really important to figure out what's the highest leverage problem to solve or where the biggest revenue leak or product leak is. Um, this really focuses the team. I think when something's kind of stalled out and you, you're looking for that big quick win that's going to be established confidence, not just of your.
[00:15:44] Customer, but of your team internally as well. And so it's really important to focus on the right thing, um, so that the effort is well spent. So with that, I think I really look at the full funnel again to find where's [00:16:00] that biggest drop off in the journey. Um, I look at the p and l to really see what is the major driver of revenue.
[00:16:07] So to your point earlier about looking at information by segment, this is where it could be really important. Which segment is driving the bulk of your revenue? and would it make sense to do a strategy that focuses and doubles down on that segment to really start to see that? Turnaround versus maybe spreading yourself too thin, trying to solve for everyone.
[00:16:29] so I think when I did this at, uh, Eventbrite and, and this was all about our marketing tool suite. we were seeing a lot of healthy top of funnel interest, but when you kind of added up the various steps to the bottom of the signup journey, we were really converting at a super low rate, like.
[00:16:49] 0.1%. and so I kind of felt like, hey, if we could just even move that to 0.5%, well that's like a five x improvement, um, without needing to drive more demand. Right. and again, this is an upsell product, so we really needed to make sure that this was really reaching people within our installed base. So that really gave us focus.
[00:17:13] And, you know, there was, uh, the step in the journey about starting, converting after trial was like a big area where we saw a, a big drop off, and that's where I decided to really help focus the team on how can we solve that conversion after trial.
[00:17:30] Elle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I wanna say again, something that you said because I, it sounds like something that only very seasoned leaders and product marketers would say, and that is that you wanted to start at that. you were saying like, investing the time and resources on something that's going to instill the confidence and trust in the team as well.
[00:17:55] Because you wanna obviously wanna get more resources.
[00:17:57] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:17:58] Elle: need to prove very [00:18:00] early that, hey look, this is working, like let's do more. it can be so tempting and not that it's counterintuitive exactly, but I think it can be tempting to wanna pursue something that's more, I guess like flashy, that would be like a, an externally validating, route.
[00:18:19] so I just wanted to call that out. 'cause I think that's something that a lot of pmms would miss is to take the step to like do the highest that solve that as in your words, the like highest leverage problem.
[00:18:30] Jameelah: Right, And again, that the morale of the team is so important for that collaboration. You mentioned earlier, the reason we were able to move so quickly was because of the trust and the kind of, connection that everyone felt to each other and to the problem we were solving. And so that trust is fragile.
[00:18:49] You have to really show as a leader that you understand the investment and time and effort that people are putting into solving this problem by not wasting their time on things that are not gonna be, um, important and, and not gonna move the needle. Um, so it's a really, really important aspect. And I realized, actually, I hadn't described like what we actually did here to, to change the
[00:19:11] Elle: Oh sure. Yeah.
[00:19:12] Jameelah: of, uh, after trial.
[00:19:15] But this was a moment where we, um, really found that one, the, the trial itself was confusing. We had research that showed that people were like, what did I sign up for again? So kind of knowing that the trial experience wasn't giving them a sense of the value. we also saw that, those who did convert the package distribution was very.
[00:19:37] Imbalance. So we had three tiers of the subscription and we basically saw like 90% of people in the lowest package. which usually means that you've missed something in your packaging strategy. and we also noticed that, of course, uh, for the trial as well, we were not doing a kind of trial structure where you default people into the [00:20:00] subscription afterwards.
[00:20:01] So for all three of those, we made changes. We defaulted people into the description subscription. After the trial, we also changed the trial experience. To move from trialing one feature at a time to trialing the entire package or bundle. That way they could see more of the value and test more of the features together.
[00:20:22] and lastly, there was a big, effort to change the packaging strategy and we did not change prices. I tell people, everyone wants to change prices we're too expensive or whatnot. That's
[00:20:35] Elle: it's the EAs the easy thing to
[00:20:36] Jameelah: easy thing to do.
[00:20:38] Elle: thing to do. Yeah. But, and it goes back to your point of like, maybe it's like counterintuitive, but to focus on the thing that's going to, I'm trying to remember your exact words. The highest leverage problem.
[00:20:50] Jameelah: Exactly. So I mean, Yeah.
[00:20:52] pricing can be one of the solutions, but I always tell people like, don't go to it first. Like, because if you go there first, it's harder to evaluate some of these other things afterward. So to me, I think it, it should be one of the, one of the things in the toolbox, but it's not the first thing that I pull out.
[00:21:09] So we changed the packaging strategy. There were certain features that were really highly sophisticated. Very few people used them, but the people who used them, like were like, this is the most powerful tool I've ever, I would pay way more money for this. And I was like. Ding, ding, ding. Um,
[00:21:25] Elle: Oh, here we go.
[00:21:27] Jameelah: we moved that feature from the lowest package to the highest package, and made some other moves like graduating.
[00:21:35] We had an email tool as well within it, uh, within the marketing tool suite that, uh, basically gave the same number volume of emails to everyone. So we also segmented that so that the lower package had a smaller amount of emails, medium amount of emails, large amount of emails, Makes Perfect. sense. all of those really helped the customer to self-select into the right plan for them.
[00:21:59] [00:22:00] And that's how we were able to change the average revenue per customer by basically moving a large chunk of people to the middle package instead of, like I said earlier, 90% being in that lowest package. and this is also how we were able to improve the trial conversion, was making the trial a lot more intuitive.
[00:22:20] Getting them to try all the features and then defaulting them into the subscription afterward.
[00:22:24] Elle: Right. Yeah. Makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing so much about how you guys actually solved it. So if I'm reiterating your first step was to look at the product data, follow the customer journey. The second step is to figure out that highest to leverage problem and solve it. and I guess, and maybe we're kind of getting into that now, but like what would the third step be?
[00:22:48] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:22:48] I mean, I think the, the third step was all about how do we. Basically continue to iterate on the solution to the problem. I think that there were really a lot of situations where it wasn't as clear. So the packaging and trials, um, elements were relatively clear. But I'd mentioned earlier that another thing we discovered was the fact that there was this difference between infrequent hosts and frequent hosts, and none of the trial journey, none of that was gonna solve that issue.
[00:23:21] So we still wanted to figure out what might be the right solution or, or what people were experiencing of our product between these two segments. So here's where I recommend starting to do the fresh research. this is ultimately how you, run into. Really helping to come up with the right solutions.
[00:23:45] And this is an area where you want to get as much qualitative information as well as quantitative. So I tell people like, don't jump to surveys like right away. It can be really, really helpful to [00:24:00] actually do like focus groups and other things before you go to surveys because surveys very much are, you know, if you don't ask the right question, you're not gonna get the right outputs.
[00:24:09] So really figuring out the hypothesis and business question you're trying to answer before you mo move to surveys is important. so now we were specifically trying to answer the question of how do we solve for the infrequent host versus. The frequent hosts. and that was what we kind of double clicked on by having focus groups with a few examples of that, and, ultimately led that into a survey where we could really validate the behavior on at scale.
[00:24:39] Elle: yeah. Yeah. So, and I think, I love that you did focus groups. I think they're hard to do. harder to do for B2B, but they're so fun. But this was a B2B type of offering, right? For Eventbrite. So, I can't imagine it was that hard to pull off. So do you wanna talk a little bit more about that? Like how did you pull it off, especially in such a short amount of time?
[00:25:02] Like, were they in person? Were they over zoom? Like how did it, how did you do it?
[00:25:07] Jameelah: Well, I, I tell people, like research is definitely one of those things where you can scale it to wherever you're at. I think people have a, perception of research that it's always costing like a million dollars to do a eight month study, you know,
[00:25:22] Elle: Oh my gosh. So expensive. They're so expensive. Yeah.
[00:25:26] Jameelah: It can be. Um, but that's where I always recommend like being scrappy.
[00:25:31] and I partnered with market research and design to make sure that there was still rigor, but ultimately doing things like recruiting friends and family. If it's a B2B audience, I've done, uh, focus weaves where we reached out to people on LinkedIn. Um, now is it the most scientific, perfectly randomized sample?
[00:25:52] No. But again, if you're just trying to really do that initial, sniff test of is there, there, there, [00:26:00] where should I be? Kind of further investigating and double clicking on some of those lighter touch ways to get engaged with people can still be incredibly valuable. So I'm a huge fan and you can really scale your approach depending on your budget and your resources.
[00:26:15] Elle: Yeah. I love the way that you were able to pull that off. because I, I've done them before. The one, the last time I did a focus group, we were, we leveraged a conference that was happening where all of our, like, target customers were going to be at this conference. And we just rented like a hotel suite and we invited like eight to 10 people to come.
[00:26:38] And we had little like worksheets that we printed out that were intended to just be like a discussion guide. And we had one person, our PM, facilitate the discussion and I just sat there and took notes and I would like interject here and there, but I, you know, it was amazing. It was, and it was like pretty affordable too.
[00:26:56] But it was nice that we got to do it in person 'cause we leveraged the conference. But otherwise yeah, like super scrappy. Just get everyone on a Zoom meeting and
[00:27:04] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:27:06] I love that idea of leveraging conferences to get it done like anytime you can. Yeah.
[00:27:12] Be a little opportunistic, uh, to, to really help yourself, um, get in front of the customer. That's the priority. Like having touchpoints with your customer is so important, and yes, they're busy and it can be difficult, so any way you can make it easier for them and for you, the better.
[00:27:28] Elle: Absolutely. Yes. Okay. So your step one was start with, to start with existing research. Step two was to identify that big problem that you wanted to solve, and you talked a little bit about how you solved that problem. Then step three is to go to the now, the fresh research, and now ideally starting with the focus groups to help, um, you said, to help, uh, identify, okay, what are the big things like the sniff test, right?
[00:27:52] Like that we definitely want to then pursue with quantitative research. so what's next? What do you, what do you [00:28:00] do with all that?
[00:28:01] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:28:02] So I mean, I think, you know, the big last step is really to find and design tests that are an effective and efficient use of your time And your resources. So I think there's so many different types of tests. This is another example of you could do the, like huge pilot in a country, outside of your largest market.
[00:28:26] Or you could create a website that kind of leads to nowhere that just kind of sees who clicks on it. Like there, there's so many different ways to, iterate and test into solutions before launching. and so. As an example, with the situation with the infrequent host, we wanted to test the idea of having them sign up for a non-renew subscription, just like a one-time payment for a two months of marketing tool support.
[00:28:57] and we didn't wanna get, build that into the entire experience. So we worked with our kind of servicing team to really do something that was purely handled on the backend, operationally without kind of a TA ton of, Rebuild of the entire, system. so that was one way we tested into that, which was, um, really helpful and actually helped us validate that there wasn't as much interest in that solution for the infrequent host as we we were thinking there was going to be.
[00:29:28] and glad we did not invest in the building this whole thing out before, before recognizing that. yeah. And it was definitely a surprising, um,
[00:29:37] Elle: But you ran the
[00:29:38] test. Yeah. And you ran the test to find that out, so you didn't have to spend a ton of resources. Yeah.
[00:29:44] Jameelah: Exactly. We descoped it to something that was manageable for us to do. And so I.
[00:29:50] think, you know, my biggest recommendation for people when you get to this phase is really lay out all of those, um, business questions that you have, or hypotheses that you [00:30:00] have into your, you know, questions roadmap.
[00:30:03] and that essentially becomes the way you organize the team's work is what's the highest priority question to answer about our customer, about our solution or our path forward. And then designing the tests that are going to be the lightest way to answer those highest priority questions on your roadmap.
[00:30:23] Just walk through it one by one. Um, and it really helps to focus the team. 'cause sometime you can get into that analysis paralysis of boiling the ocean using all of my consulting phrases. Um, but um, yeah, like you don't wanna boil the ocean. You wanna focus on. Really what question is going to clarify our path forward the most and focus on that.
[00:30:47] And then we learned with that lightweight test and pivoted our approach after that. So it was really helpful that we did it that way and and prioritized that question first.
[00:30:57] Elle: Yeah, I love the questions roadmap. That is so brilliant. The other thing that I could imagine would be just an added bonus of having something like your questions roadmap is that, again, like you're working hand in hand with PM during all of this, and probably I'm sure other teams as well. I think establishing that shows how you and your team are being super thoughtful about how you're spending everybody's time.
[00:31:25] And again, like all of this goes back to trust and confidence in each other and the team. So not only is just this, just like strategic use of your time and resources, but I just wanted to call out that I would imagine that this, that having that level of communication with the team just helps establish more trust in each other and in you and your team.
[00:31:48] So, I love
[00:31:50] Jameelah: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:31:52] Elle: okay, so, now here, we've, we've done the questions roadmap and we've designed the test and experiments that we run a [00:32:00] run. I guess now do we test the hypothesis, like what happens next? Or maybe that's part of the, the, that's part of the test or the questions roadmap. So what do you do after, after that?
[00:32:10] Jameelah: yeah.
[00:32:10] at this point you're, you're basically walking through that roadmap and starting to launch the tests. Um, so some people call it the learning agenda or experimentation roadmap or whatnot, but, uh, again, this is really a moment to monitor the product, continue to evaluate, learn, and then pivot as new information is coming in.
[00:32:32] So, to me, this is a really exciting time because I always tell people I, as A-P-M-M-I live for the aha moments. It's really that moment that those mic drop moments where you're like, boom, here's a new insight. Um, so I, I get really excited about it. So an experimentation roadmap I'm living,
[00:32:49] Elle: I am the same way. It's like I get like a hit of dopamine, like
[00:32:53] Jameelah: yes.
[00:32:55] Elle: a hundred percent.
[00:32:57] Jameelah: Yeah. And even when It's not working out. So again, I mentioned those
[00:33:01] one time bundles did not take off. It's still exactly, it's still an aha moment. So
[00:33:07] Elle: I am here for it. I
[00:33:09] love that.
[00:33:10] Jameelah: And it was still a moment to continue the conversation. Like getting an aha doesn't mean like, that's just the end. Like when it says, oh, this didn't work.
[00:33:19] Okay, move on. No. It's like, okay, why didn't it work? And is there still opportunity to, move in a different way to kind of get at what we initially thought or do we need to evaluate? This was as big of a problem as we originally thought. in this situation, we pivoted basically to making the subscriptions basically a lot more, uh, convenient to cancel and rejoin.
[00:33:45] We essentially matched the. Behavior that we were already seeing in product of people who were maybe hosting an event for Valentine's Day. They'd sign up a couple months later in March or [00:34:00] April, they would cancel, and then if they're hosting that Halloween Bash, they would rejoin. But the experience wasn't built for that type of coming in and out of the product.
[00:34:10] Most times you build a subscription and you say, okay, someone's left. and. It's, it's not necessarily cohesive in that. way. And So we needed to rethink the journey to ensure that that behavior was not just, a bug, but actually a feature of the way we wanted this subscription to work going forward. Um, and that was better for the infrequent host.
[00:34:36] They liked it more. They felt like this would be more, less expensive long term. They felt like the one term, one time bundles just felt inconvenient and, and too, um, pr potentially too expensive over time. And so this, this ended up being a much better solution.
[00:34:52] Elle: yeah, yeah. You're not gonna be able to change the behavior of, you know, an entire segment of people or like at least. Very, very, very, very unlikely to do that. So, um, I really like that the way that you just, the way that you guys looked at this was that the failure wasn't just like, okay, we tested, it failed, like, move on.
[00:35:14] As you said, it seems like you use as, as, as the opportunity to get clarity. So, just a few quick hitters before we move on here. So first, like, obviously you guys moved very, very quickly. and so I imagine you'd have you, you have some kind of like standup meetings and whatnot, but at the end of it all, you had such wonderful results.
[00:35:35] How did you socialize that like internally so that it would actually get noticed? 'cause many pmms do the work and they don't really get valued for it. So curious how you guys went about that.
[00:35:47] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:35:47] Well, I think a huge piece is not just waiting to the end of the results to socialize the work. the work is happening all the way throughout, and that's the moment to talk about what you're [00:36:00] doing, talk about the, the aha insight, then talk about the solution that you're going to test, then talk about the results of the test, then talk about the next pivot that you're going to make.
[00:36:10] So it really should be an ongoing conversation with leadership at every stage, showcasing how you're being incredibly thoughtful and strategic about each choice that you're making along this kind of journey of transformation that you're taking them on. The second piece I always tell people is really tying everything back to revenue impact.
[00:36:34] Um, I think it's always great to, of course, highlight nuances of customer behavior or verbatims. Leaders love verbatims,
[00:36:47] but they also love dollars and cents. And so I think really, even if it's a, a estimate or a forecast, like if 5% of customers show this same behavior that would turn into this amount of revenue, like that is really the type of conversation that executives wanna have.
[00:37:09] And so anytime you're thinking about something that you have found out or you have tested, tie it back to. The, the ultimate business outcome that is going to really ensure that you're being valued to, to the word that you used before. and then of course, like data-driven storytelling, it is really important to bring the, the funnel visuals, you know, the waterfall graphs, like make it visual, make it data, oriented.
[00:37:41] And that's really going to be the story that, um, sticks with them and is undeniable.
[00:37:48] Elle: I can totally picture the, the funnel just as you're describing the customer journey and where people are dropping off and where they're not, where they're coming back [00:38:00] or, all of that. I could see those being really effective visuals for leadership. So that's such a good tip. And the other thing that you mentioned about like basically bringing them along for the ride, and I think this is worth calling out ' cause I've personally experienced this, where you tell your stakeholders, your leadership, et cetera, that these are the, hey, these are the experience, we're experiments, we're gonna run.
[00:38:23] This is why. and then coming back later and saying, Hey, remember when we ran those experiments? Like this was the result and here's what we're gonna do with that information. Because I think they, like I've had, I've experienced me myself being, Just young and inexperienced in my lifetime, long ago, where I, I would say, Hey, I'm gonna run these experiments.
[00:38:45] And I would do it, but then I would just, like, I would know the results. Be like, oh, okay, now I'm gonna go do this. And I would just forget to like, I mean, my, my immediate leadership knew, but like my stakeholders maybe like PM sales, like they didn't necessarily know. So it wasn't a big deal. But, you know, to have them coming back to me and being like, Hey, remember that experiment?
[00:39:03] What happened with that? Like, you know, so, again, not a huge deal, but it's a good reminder. It was, that was a good lesson for me in my career to tell them what you're gonna do, do the thing, and then come back and show them the results and what you're gonna do with it. So, um,
[00:39:17] Jameelah: What's fair is, you know, you're running a million miles per hour usually, so you got the result and that immediately leads to a new to-do list of tons of things to follow up on that. So I always work with my teams on stakeholder mapping pretty intentionally and early and ensuring that there's at least some ritual around each layer of Your stakeholder map, so that if nothing else, there's kind of a forcing mechanism to come back to them.
[00:39:46] It's like, oh, we have that quarterly meeting with this leader that's already on the calendar. I need content for it. Oh, what about that experiment we launched? We should go back and close the loop there. So having some of those standing, um, kind of [00:40:00] rituals can really help hold you accountable to bringing that story back, closing the loop, and staying in constant communication.
[00:40:07] Elle: a hundred percent. I cannot survive without a stakeholder map. Like at, especially at larger enterprise sized companies, you'll have. 20, 30 stakeholders. Like there's, it's just a lot of people to keep track of and to know what they care about and all the things. So, such a good tip. Pmms, please make your stakeholder maps.
[00:40:28] Um, okay, so if I were starting from scratch here and I was trying to build out like a very similar path that you did to solve the problem, with your solution, what resources would I need as a PMM to pull this off?
[00:40:45] Jameelah: Yeah, I mean the, the biggest one is definitely a strong partnership with product. I think literally, uh, when I came into this working on growing this product as well as into the company, um, one of the first things I did was sit down with product and kind of really build out a raci, or just discussed how we wanted the collaboration model to look like.
[00:41:07] this was a situation where we were turning this product around. I was meeting like. It felt like probably hourly with my like, counterpart in product and my counterpart in engineering actually. because we wanted to move really, really quickly. And so we called ourselves a three-legged stool, and the three of us were just, were wanting to also communicate and demonstrate to our team a really united front.
[00:41:33] and so that really was the undergirding that allowed us to be successful in doing this. So I would just say like, start with building those relationships with a particular product, um, potentially engineering. if you needed to pull this off again, the UX journey and the product led growth element of this makes it.
[00:41:53] That partnership's so important. If you're in a sales led, situation, like clearly like sales would be that team that you wanna [00:42:00] have that three-legged stool dynamic with. Um, but, uh, just assess who is really gonna be the, the critical partner that will, um, determine your success. And then of course, like my data teams, my finance teams research, just making besties with, with a few folks and those key teams will really make your life a lot
[00:42:23] Elle: Yes. Yes. All of this really does come back to your internal teams and building trust and confidence in each other, making each other besties for sure. Uh um. I love that. Okay. I just have a couple more questions for you. How did you monitor success Ongoing.
[00:42:42] Jameelah: Yeah, I mean, um, I think in what we were, I was sharing earlier about keeping in contact with your, your executives, like it's really important to really tie the success metrics to the revenue and, and the p and l ultimately. So, uh, really went through and define like, what would a healthy p and l look like?
[00:43:02] What would, how does that translate into the different parts of the funnel, um, in terms of how many people I wanna see joining, how many people I wanna see churning, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, so defining those success metrics along the entire kind of p and l journey is important. Um, the second thing I always say is really look at cohorts or.
[00:43:24] Um, distributions versus averages. I, my, my team always laughs like they, I basically say this to them constantly, but, uh, I think it's super, super important. especially when you're turning a, a product around, that's where you start to really see the differences in how your product is operating for different customers.
[00:43:44] And sometimes that those insights can be really hidden within an average. So, I think pick a segment that you know is really important to your revenue story. and not just look at the overall metrics of your dashboard, but then [00:44:00] maybe those metrics cut by the particular segment that you know, is really important, um, to continue looking at.
[00:44:06] And then, um, really make looking at the data a collective. ritual. So a lot of times you have your own personal view of your dashboard and you're looking at it. but I do think it was really important for us to have forums where the whole working team would look at the success metrics together. that way we could start thinking about, because everyone in the room will notice something slightly different about the data and what they're seeing, and it just allows for a really constructive and creative conversation.
[00:44:37] Elle: And it holds it, um, not necessarily holds people accountable, but it gives people like a, I guess like a sense of ownership or contribution and then, then a shared contribution. It just adds to the whole, I feel like I see a theme here with like, trust and
[00:44:50] confidence in each other. It's, I, I'm really liking it.
[00:44:54] Okay. This is my last question for you on this topic. So, if you were to give a PMM who is, so inspired by the story and they're embarking on a very similar journey, they're trying to borrow some of your playbook and iterate on it, like what's one piece of advice that you have for them moving forward?
[00:45:11] Jameelah: Yeah, I mean, um, maybe the thing I would really focus on is get comfortable with understanding the business. I think that that is really, really, it sounds like it should be messaging or
[00:45:28] Customers.
[00:45:29] or something like of, of course, Yes.
[00:45:31] those are very important. But I think the, the ability to drive results comes down to really taking an interest and understanding the levers of how the company, whatever you're at, makes money and how it translates into, value for customers.
[00:45:52] How that, how behavior of customers using the product translates into the moneymaking, et cetera, et cetera. I think that [00:46:00] really helps you focus your time. It really helps you. Get, be valued as A contributor to the team and, and the company and the customers. and it gives you, uh, a kind of fluency and confidence, especially when you're trying to, influence at the either highest levels or the organization or to different types of teams.
[00:46:23] Maybe they don't think you're trying to influence the finance team to give you some resources to run one of those fancy market research studies. Like the finance team will not just hear like, oh, we really need to understand the nuance of the customer, that they wanna know the numbers. So like,
[00:46:39] Elle: A hundred percent. And it, it sounds crazy to say like there's lots of things that bring a company together, but like, at the end of the day, everybody's gonna be successful if the company's making money. Like every, that's, that's like the one shared metric for everybody in the company.
[00:46:56] Jameelah: So, that's the shared language and, and a lot of what we do as pmms is influence. So
[00:47:02] Elle: I love it. So great. Okay. Thank you so much for walking us through such a powerful playbook, an incredible story. so now I would like to transition into the, the second and last segment of our show, which is so fun. This is the messaging critique. So this is where you and I as product marketing experts get to analyze real world messaging.
[00:47:24] And the fun part is you, as the guest on the show, get to pick the company that we will look at. So just some quick ground rules for people who may be new to this segment. So, we're gonna pick a company that either we are the target audience for or. Uh, one where we know the audience really well would not be fair to critique messaging for a company that we have no idea who their target audience is and who am I to judge their messaging.
[00:47:48] Um, but once we disclose or, or share out the company we're looking at, then we are gonna talk about Jameelah, which you're loving about their messaging, um, something you wish the PMM would've done differently. And [00:48:00] then we'll just iterate a little bit on how they can take it to the next level. So without further ado, please reveal the company we are looking at today.
[00:48:07] Jameelah: We are looking at Calendly, and I use this tool all the time, particularly with, my podcast that Al mentioned earlier. And so it.
[00:48:20] is, really a lifesaver. So I I love, I love what they do.
[00:48:26] Elle: I, I also use it for my podcast.
[00:48:29] Jameelah: Yes.
[00:48:31] Elle: so for those of you who may not know, Calendly is most commonly known as an like, maybe like a scheduling tool. We'll just, I'll just call it that. I think that's probably what they're most commonly thought of as, but I'll let you kind of walk us through like, who do you think their target, like, I guess like quickly describe who they are and who you think their target audience is.
[00:48:54] Jameelah: Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest elements of, you know, business is managing your time, and so this is.
[00:49:02] a app that really allows for easy scheduling without the tons of back and forth of, I'm free from two to three next Thursday, Eastern Standard Time, and somebody else replying, well, I'm free at 10 to 11:00 AM.
[00:49:19] Pacific tie, it's
[00:49:21] like it eliminates all of the back and forth. Um, I think this is in particular important for, um, small business owners. as you know, you may not have an executive assistant Or somebody else who's able to manage your calendar for you. Um, and you're managing just a lot of different stakeholders who need access to you and your time.
[00:49:43] and so I.
[00:49:43] think that that is really at the crux of what they
[00:49:46] Elle: The correct one. Yep, absolutely. I totally agree. Um, so for those of you who may wanna follow along, we're just going to Calend Lee's homepage and just kind of talking through the messaging on the homepage. so Jameelah, what is popping out at you when you look at [00:50:00] their messaging?
[00:50:01] Jameelah: I mean, it's almost interesting when you were talking about at the beginning how we hesitated to say the word scheduling, and yet it is everywhere on this page. So the very top headline is Easy Scheduling Ahead, and it says, join 20 million professionals who easily book meetings with the number one scheduling tool.
[00:50:21] Elle: Yes,
[00:50:22] Jameelah: And we know as pmms, like category definition is really one of the biggest levers you have for positioning, but also one of the most challenging. and so, so that strikes me as I, and then, oh, I think the next headline says, Calendly make Scheduling Simple.
[00:50:38] Elle: Wow. Yes. They are using repetition, aren't they?
[00:50:42] Jameelah: Um, yep, yep. And so it's very clear that use case. I think one of the things that, um, as somebody who uses the product, this really feels to me a little underselling what they?
[00:50:56] do. Like scheduling is like the crux of it, but, um, there are workflows. You can get paid for different time slots. You can, you know, really kind of use it almost as a mini CRM, um, because it sends reminders to your clients that you're meeting with, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:51:15] So, um, Yeah.
[00:51:17] I, I'm surprised by how often the word scheduling comes up on here, especially if I were thinking about positioning it as beyond scheduling. And I think they say that at some point on the page,
[00:51:30] but. You're gonna move beyond. Oh, yeah. Calendly functionality goes way beyond just the scheduling link.
[00:51:37] Elle: More than a scheduling link. So it's so funny because at the, like, I feel like above the fold, quote unquote, they're like scheduling, scheduling, scheduling. And then when you scroll down, like, but we're more than scheduling.
[00:51:46] Jameelah: Right,
[00:51:47] Elle: So it's, so I think to your point, they're like very, I would guess I'm making a ton of assumptions here because obviously I haven't looked at any customer data or done any research at all.
[00:51:59] But [00:52:00] I would guess like, just from a funnel perspective, they probably have like a huge, very large number of people who just use it for scheduling. And then they have some, like, you know, more advanced, more sophisticated users who do the, like more than a, more than a schedule link. Right? maybe that's why it's like hierarchy that's, um, associated with like, size of segment of customers.
[00:52:27] I don't know. I, that's just a hypothesis that I have for that.
[00:52:30] Jameelah: I think what's interesting is like generally you are the, the people who want the most like baseline functionality. Like once you're established in the market, they'll come to you anyway. Like Calendly kind of already the mental model already owns that space. so I think where there is opportunity is to actually help the people who do wanna go beyond that, start to associate that with your brand as well.
[00:52:59] So to me, most times you won't lose the people who already associate your brand with scheduling anyway. If you actually pump up more of. The beyond scheduling kind of aspect of your product. Um, and, you know, this is a, a trade off. We also make, like when I was talking about Vampire earlier, it's like we're still a ticketing company, but we do need to pump up the fact that we do marketing and all these other things.
[00:53:24] So what's kind of the trade off there? And, and that's what I always found is that, the, the more sophisticated user is the one you actually need to communicate with. and the person who just wants the scheduling link, one probably already knows your brand name, and two are gonna find it, through many other different, you know, pathways.
[00:53:45] Not like you
[00:53:46] Elle: Exactly.
[00:53:46] Jameelah: on your entire page.
[00:53:49] Yeah.
[00:53:49] Elle: Okay, so I guess tell me, so one thing that you're really like loving about their messaging and then, you know, it sounds like the advice that you would give to their pmms [00:54:00] would be to maybe explore elevating their offering or their value a little bit more. But I don't wanna take words outta your, or put words in your mouth.
[00:54:10] Jameelah: I mean, I, I think, you know, they do a good job here about really highlighting functionality. I think one of the things that is tough when you have just a, a, a product suite that's growing and you have many integrations and, all these different use cases is really to cleanly show the functionality.
[00:54:27] And I think the tutorials, the how tos, the kind of easy organization of connect your calendar, add your availability, like it's very, easy to grasp and understand the kind of core functionality. And I think it's just explained in a really clean way.
[00:54:42] Elle: Yeah. I also noticed they do a lot of validation, which I think is really strong. Like they mentioned 20 million professionals, number one scheduling tool. Then they have all of their case studies. Then they also have, the security, features of the, so they just do so much validating of the product, which, you don't see all the time in product marketing.
[00:55:02] So I think that
[00:55:03] Jameelah: Agreed. a hundred percent. I, I love the social proof,
[00:55:08] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So last question about Calend Lee. How would you, I guess, how would you take it to the next level?
[00:55:16] Jameelah: Yeah, well, you know, call me up. No, I'm just kidding. But, um, think,
[00:55:24] Elle: Seriously, though?
[00:55:25] Jameelah: I think I
[00:55:27] I think ultimately, like I said, um, that there are so many more features in this beyond scheduling that I would think about speaking to the core kind of. Need that a business owner is trying to solve versus just the kind of functional benefits.
[00:55:46] So, you know, when you're doing your, your product hierarchy, you can think about, or, or rather your messaging hierarchy, you can think about functional benefits versus emotional benefits. and to me, like Calendly is your best first employee. Like this [00:56:00] is like helping you basically like, you know, manage your time.
[00:56:06] they're the ones sending reminders to your customers. They're the ones like helping you, um, stay on top of things. And so, um, they're, they're kind of like your first chief of staff hire or something. Um, and so I'm like, how do you pump that. up basically as
[00:56:21] Elle: that. I love that. I would love to run some like experiments maybe with a focus group.
[00:56:28] Jameelah: you go.
[00:56:30] Elle: I love it. It would be fun. Okay, Calendly. We're here. We're here.
[00:56:36] Jameelah: Exactly,
[00:56:38] Elle: Uh, seriously though, shout out to the Calendly. Pmms. Like, I think they're, you've clearly got some fans. We love the product. Um, and so we have some ideas. We'd love your feedback. Okay.
[00:56:49] Jameelah: Yes,
[00:56:50] Elle: Okay. Alright. So Jameelah, I love to make space on my podcast for what I call a gratitude moment.
[00:56:57] So, um, and that's because preparing for this podcast takes so much work and you have been incredibly, uh, generous with giving us your time and your expertise. So thank you first and foremost for that and for being with us today. Yeah. And before we wrap up, I wanna turn it over to you and give you a chance to give some shout outs to some pmms who have influenced you and help shape the amazing pm MM that you are today.
[00:57:25] Jameelah: Yeah.
[00:57:26] Oh.
[00:57:26] my goodness. It's so hard to think of just, uh, a, a couple folks to, to shout out and, and give gratitude to because so much of my journey has been, um, shaped by having truly phenomenal leaders and, and very gratefully phenomenal. women leaders throughout my career. So I'll shout out a couple. Um, Abby Weinstein, um, she was my leader at when I was a PMM at, uh, audible, and she just really showed me the, the crux of like the, the practice [00:58:00] of being a great product marketer of being a strategic product marketer.
[00:58:04] and then I'll also shout out, Tamara Mendelson. She was my CMO at Eventbrite and just continues to be such an incredible mentor and advocate for me. Um, so truly I feel incredible gratitude to, their leadership and the way that they have, um, helped me grow.
[00:58:22] Elle: I love that. Shout out to mentors. I, I wouldn't be doing this podcast today if I didn't have the mentors that I've had. Like, it's just, it's life, truly life changing. So I'm so glad that, that you had that too. Um, okay. Last question for you, I promise. Where can the listeners access your expertise? obviously your podcast, um, please give us any more details about that, that we need to know.
[00:58:47] and then is it best to find you on LinkedIn?
[00:58:49] Jameelah: Yes, um, definitely. Um, look for me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty sure I'm the only Jameelah Calhoun on there. Um, if there's someone else out there like please let me know. I would love that.
[00:59:01] Elle: each
[00:59:02] Jameelah: Uh, yeah, Yeah.
[00:59:04] exactly. Um, but uh, that's a great way to just continue to keep in touch. And then in terms of my podcast on popular decisions, uh, dot com or of course wherever you listen to your podcast, um, would love for you guys to engage and let me know what you think.
[00:59:21] Elle: Amazing. Thank you so much Jameelah.
[00:59:24] Jameelah: Thank you. This was so fun.
[00:59:26] Elle: Yes, of course. And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, please share it with a PMM friend and I'd be so grateful if you would leave me a review. It helps tremendously with our reach. so thank you so much for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
[00:59:45]
