Go Bold with Competition Like a Sybill PMM
Everyone knows the story of David and Goliath. A giant. Bigger, stronger, more experienced. And then the underdog who, on paper, has no business winning. But the part people forget is that David did not try to become a Goliath. He did not put on the armor. He did not try to outmatch the giant strength for strength. He found the one opening that actually mattered, then he went all in on it.
That part of the story feels very real when you are a PMM inside a startup. You look at the market leader and think, they have the brand, they have the budget, they have the default position in every deal, and you do not. So the question becomes, how can you win? That is what today’s episode is all about. We are talking about how a startup went head to head with a category leader and did not try to outspend them or out feature them. They got painfully clear on where the leader was weak and built an entire go to market motion around it.
I could not think of a better person to walk us through this than Collin Mayjack. Collin leads product marketing at Sybill, where he has been at the center of one of the hardest plays in B2B, competing directly with a category leader and turning it into real pipeline. Before Sybill, he was a product marketer at GoFundMe, working on a platform millions of people rely on during some of the most emotional and important moments of their lives. He has seen firsthand what it takes to build trust and drive adoption at scale. And what makes his background especially interesting is that before product marketing, he was a pastor. Long before he was building positioning and messaging, he was learning how to connect with people, earn trust, and move people through belief. Sounds pretty close to product marketing, if you ask me.
Step One: Get Clear on Differentiation
Collin’s first step is the one most teams rush past. Define what you do better than the incumbent, in a way that is specific and defensible. Not “we’re more modern.” Not “we’re easier to use.” The actual strengths where you win, and where the competitor is weak.
For Sybill, that meant leaning into areas where Gong users were already skeptical, like AI accuracy and the quality of insights. The point is not to throw shade for fun. The point is to give the market a clear reason to believe switching is worth it.
Step Two: Use Real Customer Frustrations
The next move is to stop guessing what people hate about the competitor and go find it. Collin talked about digging through forums, comment sections, and conversations with people who had switched. That is where the real language lives and where you find the complaints customers repeat without being prompted.
At Sybill, a lot of that frustration centered on Gong’s AI performance. Once you have that truth, you can build content that feels like it is saying the quiet part out loud. It lands because it is not manufactured. It is already being said.
Step Three: Build a Full Funnel Competitive System
Collin emphasized that bold competitive marketing only works when it is backed by substance. You need top of funnel content that grabs attention, but you also need bottom of funnel assets that prove the claim. Otherwise you get clicks, not conversions.
So the strategy becomes a system. Big, bold hooks that start the conversation, then evidence that carries it through the deal cycle. That includes proof points, product detail, and anything that helps a buyer justify the switch internally.
Put a Face on It
One of the most interesting parts of Collin’s approach is that he did not hide behind a company page. He used his personal LinkedIn to drive the narrative, share opinions, and engage directly with the market. That personal voice made the content feel more human and more credible.
It also created a clear association. People did not just remember “Sybill said this.” They remembered who said it, and they could respond to a person, not a brand logo. That is a big advantage when you are trying to build trust quickly.
Bold, But Not Reckless
Collin also talked about the guardrails. If you are going to go bold, you need litmus tests. Is it true? Can we back it up? Are we punching up in a way that is fair, or are we crossing into cheap shots? The goal is to be direct without being sloppy, and confident without being offensive.
That balance matters because competitive marketing can earn attention fast, but it can also backfire fast if it is not rooted in reality.
Messaging Critique: Zendesk
In our conversation, we also dissected a recent campaign by Zendesk, “Call Your Mom”. The campaign was meant to highlight AI agents over human customer support, but inadvertently trivialized personal audience sensitivities. Collin’s take was that you can still be bold without being careless. A more empathetic approach, like highlighting successful real world users and outcomes, can draw attention and create contrast without alienating the very people you are trying to win over.
Collin’s big lesson is that underdogs have a kind of freedom incumbents do not. You can take risks, be more direct, and challenge the default narrative. If you do it with clear differentiation, real customer truth, and a full funnel plan, you can actually shift perception and pull buyers into a new conversation.
If you are in a category dominated by a giant, remember this: you do not have to wait for permission to compete. You just need a strategy that is bold on the surface and solid underneath.
LINKS
Messaging Critique:
Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/
Zendesk Campaign Screenshot on Emily Fenech’s post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/emilyelkins_say-it-with-me-who-approved-this-being-share-7455692957049090050-9OoD/?
Collin’s Sample Competitive Post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/collinmayjack_edit-this-was-an-april-fools-joke-im-share-7445093042652385280-urzh/?
Connect with Collin:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/
Connect with Elle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/
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[00:00:41] Elle: Everyone knows the story of David and Goliath. A giant, right? Bigger, stronger, and more experienced. And then this underdog who on paper has no business winning. But the part that people forget is that David didn't try to become a Goliath. He didn't put on the armor. He didn't try to outmatch the giant strength for strength.
[00:01:04] He found the one opening that actually mattered, and then he went all in on it. That's the part of the story that feels very real when you're a PMM sitting inside a startup. You look at the market leader and think they have the brand, they have the budget, they have the default position in every deal, and you don't. So the question becomes: how can you win? That's what today's episode is all about. We're talking about how a startup went head-to-head with a category leader and didn't try to outspend them or out-feature them, although there are some significant product differences in this scenario. But seriously, they got painfully clear on where the leader was weak and built an entire go-to-market motion around it.
[00:01:50] I could not think of a better person to walk us through this than today's guest, Collin Mayjack Collin is leading product marketing at Sibyll where he's been [00:02:00] at the center of one of the hardest plays in B2B, competing directly with a category leader and turning it into real pipeline. Before Sibyll he was a product marketer at GoFundMe, working on a platform that millions of people rely on during some of the most emotional and important moments of their lives.
[00:02:15] So he's seen firsthand what it takes to build trust and drive adoption at scale, not just inside a niche market, but in products tied to real human emotion and decision-making. What it ta-- but what makes Collin's background especially interesting is that before product marketing, he was actually a pastor, which means long before he was building positioning and messaging, he was learning how to connect with people, earn trust, and move people through belief.
[00:02:43] Sounds pretty close to a product marketer, if you ask me. Collin, I'm so excited to have you on the show.
[00:02:48] Collin: Hey, Elle. I am so happy to be here. That was such a kind and gracious intro, so thank you for, for having me
[00:02:55] Elle: Yes, of course. I know I've been really looking forward to this conversation for a very, very long time, so Okay, so before we get started on the actual case study, let's get the listeners up to speed.
[00:03:07] What is Sybill exactly?
[00:03:10] Collin: Yeah. So I like to think of Sybill as a shared memory for all of your sales and go-to-market team. So it captures everything from your CRM activity to your emails, to all of your calls, and pulls that all into one memory or one context layer that your whole team can pull from. So AEs can figure out what the best reps have said to close a deal.
[00:03:34] Your CRO can understand what's actually happening in their pipeline. So instead of kind of generic, "Oh, your pipeline's at risk," they can get like a real-time insight on, "Hey, this deal is at risk because of XYZ." And then sales managers get all the context they need from their best reps to coach reps on how to do better in their role.
[00:03:53] So that's how I tend to think of it. We compete in kind of the conversational intelligence sort of category. So your, the [00:04:00] Goliath you hinted at earlier is Gong for us, but that's, that's our product and the way that I like to think about it.
[00:04:06] Elle: Yeah, that's so helpful. Um, so I'm sure it's super beneficial across basically the entire go-to-market function to be able to see and have access to that transparency within every deal. I could see how that's super useful. Um, so excited to hear more about how Sybill is competing directly with Gong. So let's start with that as our case study.
[00:04:28] I think a lot of PMMs listening are probably in really similar situations, right? Like, you don't work for the market leader. you're competing for the same budget from your customer. and bu- sometimes buyers don't even consider you, or they don't know about you, especially if you're a startup.
[00:04:44] So take me back to what was going on at Sybill when you realized that something needed to change?
[00:04:51] Collin: Yeah. So when, when I joined Sybill, we were kind of in this transition period where there were a lot of people who were thinking about us just kind of as a generic note-taker. But what we were actually seeing was, one, we were built for sales teams, and two, we were getting a lot of traction with companies that were switching from Gong to Sybill and just finding a, a really strong fit.
[00:05:12] We were finding a lot of discontent with, uh, the AI performance in, in Gong and a lot of, like, the actual accuracy of the insights Gong would service about what's happening in deals. So we're seeing this just big volume of people, one, who were Gong customers and then considering us, and then once they get that-- to that consideration stage, actually moving through and switching over to Sybill.
[00:05:34] And as you mentioned earlier, we, we compete very much for the same budget line most of the time. There are some situations where they might work together, but for the most part, you're only gonna pay for one kind of conversational intelligence tool, and it's us versus Gong. But the pa- pattern we were seeing was that across all of our deals, the deals that we had the best time winning were when we were up against Gong.
[00:05:57] And then two, we were in the spot where we didn't [00:06:00] have a lot of brand familiarity, and everyone knew Gong. And so we were starting to get these signals that when we attached ourselves in people's minds as a Gong alternative, we got more traction than we otherwise would have
[00:06:12] Elle: Ah, okay. So first you started with this, like, pattern recognition that was coming out of your own, analysis from all of the deals that you've seen. So what did you do with that once you realized that pattern recognition? Did you see that as more of, like, an opportunity, and was it kind of like, you know, experimenting from there?
[00:06:32] Kind of walk me through where you... What you did with that insight
[00:06:35] Collin: Yeah, so I, I saw this opportunity that, uh, if we were to attach ourselves to a giant, we could, we could get this awareness and get this traction that we otherwise wouldn't-- couldn't get. So we-- I knew I wanted to, A, drive brand awareness for Sybill. I joined Sybill, and almost no one knew that we existed.
[00:06:51] And then two, I knew that at our size, if we could even just capture some of Gong's churn, like Gong's a 300 million ARR company. Like, and if-- so let's assume 10% churn. If we could capture even half of their churn, that would be an incredible growth rate for a startup of-- at our size. And so I knew I wanted to do everything we could to, to do that, to see how, how can we benefit from their brand familiarity to boost our own, and then capture some, some of their market share
[00:07:22] Elle: I love that you kind of, you, um, identified even what a good, like, measure of success would be. Like, like capturing their, their churn rate and having the, the critical thinking skills to even think about, like, comparing size and what a churn for a huge Goliath-sized company versus, you know, more of a David-sized company, we'll say.
[00:07:43] and a lot of what you put together with this, positioning, some of it is competitive strategy, some of it is more like competitive storytelling. So it's like storytelling plus positioning. I guess, like, and you went very loud. You were [00:08:00] very direct with, you know, a lot of this. So, you know, I guess, like, walk me through
[00:08:06] Oh, before we, before we get to that point, actually, like, as you were, you s- you know, you set out this goal of the churn, do you feel like you have, like, a strong result for all of the effort and, like, I guess, like, experiments that you have been running?
[00:08:20] Collin: Yeah
[00:08:21] I think the, the shortest way to put it is that right now our win rate is 80% against Gong. So anytime that a customer is in active deal analysis, uh, comparing Sybill versus Gong, we have a very high win rate with them, and I think some of that comes down to our messaging and positioning. And then we have a number of deals over the last nine months, like if I go into Sybill and I ask, "Who are we winning with?"
[00:08:44] Sybill surfaces the top insight is Gong switchers is who we're winning with. So a significant
[00:08:49] amount of our revenue growth over the last, eight or nine months has been from Gong switchers. And as a company, since we've joined... I mean, we are a startup. We are a Series A. There's a lot of pressure to grow fast.
[00:08:59] We have doubled our ARR from September through April, so over 100% increase in that time, which really closely coincides with this choice to go all in on going after Gong.
[00:09:12] Elle: S- something's working
[00:09:14] Collin: yeah, I think the-- I don't, I don't always think like attribution is a neat line, a lot of times we'll make these efforts and there's kind of a following more intuition than we like to often admit.
[00:09:24] but for us, I think I saw this opportunity and I knew that at our size, we had the luxury where we could be very loud and very vocal, and that there was an opportunity for us that if there is a kind of status quo and you can come in and you can critique that status quo, people are immediately interested because they're either using Go- uh, using the status quo, in this case Gong, or they're familiar enough with it that they are immediately intrigued if you come along and say something's different.
[00:09:52] This is very much like what Slack did with email. Slack came along and started picking a fight with email, and they got a ton of traction, and obviously they became what they [00:10:00] did today. And so I felt like at our size, we could name and go after our Goliath. was a luxury that you have at, at our size.
[00:10:08] No one's gonna be mad at us for punching up in the same way that if Gong went after us, it would not land the same.
[00:10:14] Elle: Oh, totally. Yeah. It would, they would, they would get some heat for that.
[00:10:18] Collin: Yeah. Oh, 100%, yeah. So I'm, I'm happy to break down kind of, uh, our flow and sort of how we, how we went through it. I think we saw this opportunity and we started creating this really loud content. So we tested it. The first test, it was a post of mine that went semi-viral, right around the era of Spotify Wrapped.
[00:10:36] I put together a Gong Wrapped, and basically what it did was it took-- The same way that Spotify kind of gamifies all of your numbers from the year, I took these numbers that were rooted in customer pain points for Gong customers and tried to quantify them and say, "All right, you spent 56 hours digging through call recordings to get an answer.
[00:10:54] You set up 22 trackers that.
[00:10:56] didn't fire, and on-- Gong is increasing your pricing by 20%," like all of these hard numbers, and it sort of took off
[00:11:06] Elle: Yeah, and then it just iterated from there. I feel like you get, you do running one experiment like that. Maybe you didn't even realize that it was going to be an experiment. It was just something in your gut that you knew, like, I have to talk about this. And then that it kind of like iterates from there.
[00:11:19] What I would love to do too is take some of these examples that you're sharing, especially things like from social and such, and if it's all right with you, link them in the show notes. That way our listeners can kind of go back in history and feel like they're part of the drama as it
[00:11:35] Collin: Yes. Well, the receipts are all there
[00:11:38] Elle: Love it. Okay. So let's take this case study and let's turn this into a playbook. Imagine that, you've obviously still, you're still going up against your Goliath, so the story continues. But imagine that, you know, you're coaching me on this, and I'm at a startup, you know, maybe solo PMM, maybe solo marketer, and, I've got my [00:12:00] Goliath that I'm going up against.
[00:12:00] So maybe different context a little bit. Maybe I'm a different market, so we'll have to strip out some of that. So I guess, like, as you're coaching me through this, like, what's the first thing that I need to do? What would step one be?
[00:12:11] Collin: Yeah. I think for-- This is a true product marketing answer, but I think if you're gonna go after an incumbent, you have to recognize they are an incumbent for a reason. So you have to get very clear on what is your competitive differentiation. Like, what, what do you have that they do not? And get very clear and dialed on that as a whole team, and let that color every single asset that you're gonna create.
[00:12:38] So for us, uh, the thing that we were initially leaning into was that Gong was really good at setting up trackers where you could listen to call recordings, it could-- you could get really nice summaries. Uh, but what it didn't allow you to do was to kind of in a GPT sort of interface, ask questions across all of your calls.
[00:12:56] You could ask a, a lot about one call, but you could a- but you can't ask about, "Hey, tell me, look at the last 90 days worth of calls and tell me what our best rep has said about ob- objection X." Like it just, it couldn't contain that. Sybill could. And so I started leaning-- we started get- pointing out that, all right, this ability to query across all of your calls at once, this is kind of our special sauce that we, uh, were able to identify really, really quickly.
[00:13:22] There's some other ones. I, I think AI accuracy was, was another one that came up a lot, but w- that was a byproduct of, again, Sybill's ability to look at all of that data at once rather than one call at a time. So I think that would be?
[00:13:35] important. Like fundamental one is if you're gonna actually critique that competitor, you have to know how you're different and get very pointed with it if anyone's gonna pay attention to you.
[00:13:44] Elle: Is there, and I thank you for giving the example too, 'cause I think that's really helpful. just to, to dig a, a tiny bit deeper into your approach in finding your differentiation, 'cause I have heard, which I, I'd never agree with, but I have heard, um, marketers and [00:14:00] PMMs say that they, they can't figure out what's different between them and their competitors.
[00:14:04] Any quick tips or suggestions on, like, how to get there?
[00:14:07] Collin: Yeah. I mean, the, the simplest way I think comes back to like the fundamental of just talking to customers if s- particularly if they have switched. Like if you're trying to run this same playbook and you have customers who were willing to make that switch, something motivated them. There's so much friction to switch vendors really with any product that there?
[00:14:25] was something that motivated them, and it may not be as obvious as a very strict capability or feature.
[00:14:30] Sometimes it's more of like a philosophy. So when I was at GoFundMe, we used to talk a lot about the flexibility of the platform, and that was not one feature. That's just kind of like a philosophy that we approach the product with. So we would market a lot this idea of like brand flexibility and, the flexibility of different plugins and tools that you can integrate with.
[00:14:50] Again, it was like mo- almost a step above rather than like a granular feature. Brand becomes another one. But if you could get in touch with why would someone take the time to switch, you're probably pretty close to finding what that motivation was and therefore what your differentiation was.
[00:15:05] Elle: I love that. So helpful. Okay, so step one, get super clear on my differentiation. What's
[00:15:11] Collin: Yeah. The second step would be to The kinda inverse of that differentiation is the pain points that might exist with that existing incumbent. So like getting very, very clear on what are all the frustrations that people have with that status quo Goliath, if you will. So for us, there's, there's kind of two?
[00:15:30] sort of different plays that we ran here.
[00:15:32] One was the Gong Wrapped one. So I literally, I went, I dug into Reddit, and I looked at all the things that people were frustrated about with Gong, and I just amplified those, kicked up the dust in that Gong Wrapped sort of, sort of promo. The second one was I, I-- this was the one that probably got me the most heat, is on April Fools, I announced that I was moving from Sybill to Gong, and it was right on the line of satire where people couldn't fully tell.
[00:15:57] But if you read closely, one of my lines [00:16:00] was like, "I'm super excited to move from an environment where I ship every week to shipping annually." And it was just like a subtle dig at like Gong is not innovating at the speed that it used to. And I think people get so reticent about this, but I, I do think, I, I'll keep saying this, this is a playbook that you can only really run as a startup, and it's a luxury that you have, that you can find those pain points and you can actually amplify them, which is what we did.
[00:16:27] We were very loud, very vocal about these, about these pain points. And people hear them and they think, "Oh, I, I felt that. Like I-- that's, that's true for me." We know this in marketing in general. We just don't tend to do it as pointedly with competitors. But I think this, again, is an opportunity that you have if you're in a startup and you have this kind of large competitor you're up against
[00:16:46] Elle: Totally. And the bigger the Goliath, probably the more you'll be able to find some of those frustrations in, like, a Reddit community or, you know, other online communities and forums. I know for example, in like the IT world, there's like Spiceworks is another common forum where people go and complain about vendors.
[00:17:06] So there are places you can go and find things. so I'm curious, other than Reddit, are there any other online entities that you'd recommend to try to find some of those frustrations?
[00:17:18] Collin: Uh, comment sections tend to be a good one. If people are really frustrated with a vendor, they will comment on that vendor's social media, and so sometimes that's a good place to come through. that one has, has definitely come up. And then the, the switchers tend to be a good one again too. Like that's-- those are the ones that are gonna most neatly tie back to your product, that if someone has switched from big vendor to you, they have-- I, one of my favorite quotes was I interviewed an AE who switched from Gong to Sybill, and she has this, uh, like in a conversation she just said, "Sybill's AI is so much better than Gong's."
[00:17:51] Uh, and then she said like, "I, I would have my manager ask like, tell me to run something in Gong, and the AI, the AI was never accurate." [00:18:00] And so I was like, "This is gold." And I was able to use that and put it into some of our assets kinda later on, or even just tease it, tease it out across different, different things we were running.
[00:18:11] But again, I think anyone who has made that switch, I think that's an early signal for you that you have, there's an actual tactic to be had here, and then those people tend to have just the best pulse on what you could be saying
[00:18:22] Elle: Yeah. So helpful. And I, anchoring on the customer frus- frustration. The other reason why that is a good one is because you didn't make it up as part of a competitive analysis, you know? I mean, of course it, in a way, you kind of had this always on competitive analysis, but you didn't, like, pick something out that fit really nicely into, like, a feature comparison, right?
[00:18:45] It was, it came straight from the customer's mouth.
[00:18:49] Collin: I was just gonna say, yeah, if you can make it feel less like it came off of your Harvey Ball comparison grid, which No one
[00:18:56] trusts anyway.
[00:18:57] Uh, like it's like there, there are always these misleading things of like
[00:19:00] Elle: How did they even come up with that? Like
[00:19:02] Collin: I don't know how we got here. I think I, I imagine at once upon a time it was helpful, but now it's just kind of always become stacked.
[00:19:09] It comes up all the time where, I mean, we had a competitor, we have a competitor right now who has runs ads to a comparison page against Sybill. And l- I, I messaged their h- their content marketer who owns that? page and was Like
[00:19:23] "Hey, just a heads up, nine out of 10 of these bullets are actually inaccurate.
[00:19:27] Would you be up for modifying it?" They never did. Uh, but peop- I, I'm, I'm of the opinion now that people are smart enough to know that if you give, if you give insights about a competitor that are strictly self-serving and not actually rooted in people's experience, they can sniff it out
[00:19:45] Elle: totally, 100%. So, um, okay, so coming back to you're finding all these customer frustrations. Maybe it's in a comment section, you know, whatever. I'm curious on, was some of the content in, that [00:20:00] you're coming up with, it seems like mo- the majority of it is on social media, but we'll come back to kind of like that in a minute.
[00:20:06] But, um, is this like, do you have like a methodical process for coming up with some of these, you know, little content pieces? Or is it kind of like an ad hoc, as the opportunity comes your way, you kind of seize it and move forward? And I guess, like, if you were coaching me through this to- today, would you coach me in one way versus the other, just kind of like s- seize opportunities as, as they come?
[00:20:33] Or do you think I should, like, methodically plan content that leverages some of these customer fru- frustrations that I find?
[00:20:40] Collin: So transparently, our approach was much more ad hoc, and I do think, again, this is a luxury of being a small team is you can move fast. Like, I had the idea for Gong Wrapped on, like, a Monday. Gong Wrapped was gonna drop on Wednesday. So like I wrote up all the copy, worked with the designer, had them, had them sp-spin it up, and then I was able to launch it on the same day as Spotify Wrapped.
[00:21:02] So like it was-- the timing was right, seizing the moment was Right. But I will say, the area where there was intentional strategy is the idea to even have this kind of like content piece partially came out of we were gonna run a webinar directly comparing Sybill versus Gong, and I thought, "How could I stir up just some interest in this conversation?"
[00:21:26] And the two ideas kinda collided at the same time of like, "Oh, Spotify Wrapped is coming up. I could do, like, I-- what if I, what if I did a Gong Wrapped and we have this webinar coming up?" And it ended up being kind of two layers of content. Like to me, like this kind of light, entertaining, a little bit cheeky social media content is very top of funnel, but it could help hopefully drive people down funnel into something a little bit more substan-substantial where they could actually analyze and compare the product.
[00:21:54] So I think if I were, if I were coaching someone in these shoes, I think, one, you, you have to take the benefit of you're a small company and you [00:22:00] can move fast. And some of the stuff there's just, you have to take the opportunities as they, as they come. But where the strategy can come in is if you take those opportunities, how do you capitalize on them and actually turn them into-- 'cause it's one thing to have a moment, a post that goes viral, uh, but it's another thing to have it live beyond the couple moments of internet fame and turn into pipeline
[00:22:23] Elle: Right, so it sounds like your strategy, which i- you iterated on as opportunities arose, but you would start with these little social posts that would go viral as top funnel content, and then you continued to use some of that other, competitive in- intelligence that you were gathering, coupled with just your own positioning to develop, like, the more bottom funnel content like the webinar.
[00:22:50] And I imagine that you have other, you know, content types, assets, et cetera. can you talk a little bit more about, like, what that funnel looks like? Like, were you very intentional with that, or was it you know... And, and, and w- this might be getting us into maybe, like, and I, I don't wanna get t- step away from our playbook, so this might take us into that next step.
[00:23:10] So I don't, but I don't wanna get ahead of us. You, you tell me
[00:23:13] Collin: Yeah. I feel fine talking to it a little bit. I think, at the risk of oversimplifying a funnel, I do think having the two sides of the top and the bottom of funnel, and you have to have content that satisfies both ends. And so I would say, did we set out with a Perfect. plan and then execute that plan?
[00:23:33] No. It was kind of more like we had an idea here, and then it's how do we build the other half to support the other half? So a lot of times for me, my ideas were coming with these top of funnel sort of ideas, and then actually Drew on our team had initially the idea to do a Sybill versus Gong webinar, and it was like, all Right
[00:23:49] how do we stitch these two together for kind of a, a moment that then ag- it would drive someone down funnel?
[00:23:56] The same thing happened with kind of my, my April Fool's play, where [00:24:00] we were able to kind of have this moment where a lot of people saw my post. Then the next day I was able to do another post that went not as viral, but did really well. That the hook was, "I quit Gong after one day. I'm staying at Sybill."
[00:24:14] Or no, "I quit Gong before I started. I'm staying at Sybill." And I walked through, and like I said, the main reason I'm staying is the feat- we ship features really fast. Here are three features we shipped in the last week, not the last year. And so I could educate on the product. And then from a out, like a outbound standpoint, I could work with our head of s- of sales development, and she could look at the people who were engaging with that, drive engagements with them, do outreach, and kind of drive that.
[00:24:41] Again, try to convert that further into, into pipeline. So I think did we set out with a perfect playbook? Absolutely not. But I do think if you're, as long as you're thinking about those two halves, and you might be wired one of two ways. You might-- There are some, some PMMs who maybe who are thinking like strictly very bottom of funnel.
[00:24:57] It's actually most of the time where my ideas come is like niche product content. Um, these were rare circumstances, I think, because it was just bold and no one gets to do it. Like, I don't know a lot of PMMs who've gotten to have as aggressive of competitive campaigns as I have. But I had the ideas there and I just then, all Right. how do we augment this with something substantive at the bottom of funnel?
[00:25:17] What-- No matter how you're wired, having that other component is key. Like you, if you have an awesome... Say we had that webinar and we had no way to drive people to it, to like articulate that story and kind of agitate the pain and get them to want to learn more, we would have a unattended webinar with great content.
[00:25:33] so I, I think that would be the, that would be the coaching component for me is like making sure whatever you're doing, you need to have both of those components for your competitive strategy. Most of the time, the top of funnel one is the one that's missing. We've got battle cards, we've got landing pages.
[00:25:46] We don't have anything that we do publicly that kind of stokes the interest and the conversation to begin with.
[00:25:52] Elle: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so if you said, so if step one, coming back to our, like, little playbook that I'm outlining here. If [00:26:00] you said step one was that to be clear on your differentiation, and step two, you talked about agitating the, the customer's pain from using the competitor's product.
[00:26:11] And then would step three be kind of like, I guess, at least outlining what that funnel would look like?
[00:26:17] Collin: Yeah, I think so. I think that would be, I, I think maybe the best way to put it is to like, to create a full funnel cr- uh, competitive motion to make sure that if you're amplifying... I think that's, that really is that second step is kind of about the top of funnel and making sure you have somewhere to, lead all of that interest and intrigue.
[00:26:35] So like if at top of funnel you're amplifying the dissatisfaction, the bottom of funnel you're kind of, you're proving why you're different and you're actually showing, showing why you're different. It's, it's the, it's the receipts, if you will. You know, you've, you've, you've made claims. How do you actually like prove and make good on, on those claims?
[00:26:53] Elle: Yeah. I really appreciate the way that you're articulating the funnel as thinking about it from like a customer, like a customer journey but also how they are going through their own decision tree of, you know, the David versus the Goliath, the, the Sybill versus Gong. It's a really helpful way to think about how to build a funnel and, and how t- how the story unfolds.
[00:27:17] Collin: Yeah, it's--
[00:27:17] Elle: think about it
[00:27:18] Collin: Well, thanks. Honestly, it's been late adopted for me 'cause I really do think most product marketers, we specialize more toward the bottom. We're, we're close to the product. We think through, we think through all the use cases. We've got product explainers and Storylane, uh, interactive demos, like, I think for me, this is where Sybill, being a leaner team, where it's like we're a very small marketing team, it's forced me to think through that whole, that whole
[00:27:45] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And now I wanna go back to, I had a question for you earlier about some comments that you made, um, and some of the examples that you've given on these viral posts that you've done, right? So they're quite bold. [00:28:00] I've so many questions about this.
[00:28:01] Collin: Oh, please
[00:28:03] Elle: how do you do the gut check of is this too far?
[00:28:07] how do you know whether you're crossing the line of like, "No, this is bold. This is my conviction," versus like, "Okay, now I, now this is just getting offensive"? Not that, not that you've crossed the line. I think you've done
[00:28:16] actually a really nice... Yeah. Yeah, you've, yeah, but like you've done a really nice job of like being as bold as possible while still what I would say is like remaining or, or maintaining strong conviction in, you know, your beliefs, and of course it's your, your product, but like as you said, you have the receipts to prove it.
[00:28:36] So I guess like talk about how you, how you flirt with that line.
[00:28:41] Collin: Yeah, I think there's a couple considerations. I mean, any product marketer thinking about this, you have to think about just your team culture and your brand and, like, what is your company okay and not okay with. I'm fortunate enough that, like, Sybill is a very h- I've never been in a more high autonomy role.
[00:29:01] Like, I report to our CEO. He gives myself and Drew a ton of trust, a ton of leeway, and a lot of just like, "I trust your intuition." And we also knew we wanted to stand out to sh- we wanted to shape a brand that was spiky in its point of view and stood out and was not, I think the r- the sales tech stuff can get really lost in the sauce with, like, very, I don't know, jargony sort of language.
[00:29:26] So, like, there was like org-wise, okay, this checks out. Like, you, you can't just start doing this if it doesn't, if it's not actually, like, approved and part of the culture. But then getting down to these, like, specific tactics, I think there were kinda two very basic filters I, I ran. One, is this critique or this competitive tactic actually rooted in the truth about their product and our product? Like, I just-- That was like an honest question I asked, like, all right, is even-- Take the Gong wrapped thing. I looked through like, is this true? Like, am I, am I saying anything that is [00:30:00] actually inaccurate about the product? And that was-- I think I deemed that I wasn't, and the comments seemed to affirm that because there was-- my comments were full of people being like, "This was dead accurate."
[00:30:10] Like, there was a lot of... I think someone commented like, "Where's the lie on, on this?" And so I think, one, that was like a litmus test. And then the second one is, I do think it still is possible to overdo it. And so We were ta- I was talking internally of like, "Hey, I'm, I have this idea where I'm gonna buy A Gong shirt, and I'm gonna announce on April Fool's Day that I'm switching to Gong."
[00:30:33] And we were just, like, deciding, like, should we do it? And we asked, like, "Well, how long ago was it the last time, we took, like, a big swing?" And we realized the gap between Gong Wrapped and April Fools was six months. It's like it, it was like, all right, at this rate, we're like, yeah
[00:30:48] at this rate, we were on part for two, like a biannual big swing.
[00:30:55] And I'm like, okay, this is not all the time. It might feel all the time, and social might make it feel that way just because there's no one else is-- not a lot of people are doing this. but those were kinda my two litmus tests of like, are we doing this too much? Because we can't only be known as the anti-Gong.
[00:31:09] And then is this based in truth? Like, is there truth about our product that backs this up? Uh, because Yeah
[00:31:15] if I just say something that's true about the whole category and we're not an exception, then what are we doing here? Versus or if I'm making up something that is not actually proven true about their product, I don't wanna be caught saying that.
[00:31:28] Elle: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So helpful to have kind of the, the filter test, uh, before you actually go viral with something. now on a similar note, you are choosing to use your personal profile on LinkedIn to launch these. It's not coming from the Sybill page, which is, as all company pages are, a faceless page. It's coming from Majcak.
[00:31:52] So, and, and there has been even, like, debates about this at conferences and everything of, like, that, like, founder-led [00:32:00] marketing and using the founder or someone else in the company to, like, you know, you know, help, uh, articulate point of view on social media. So I guess, like, talk a little bit about what that decision was like and, like, was that intentional, or did it kinda just start with you being vocal and then it evolved into now you have conversations with your, I think you said your BDR before you actually post something so that it can get into your funnel and, um, which becomes, you know, now a strategic channel.
[00:32:29] So I guess talk a little bit about that and, like, maybe some of the risks and limitations versus, you know, the positive outcomes for you personally.
[00:32:37] Collin: Yeah. So I didn't-- I'll say out the gate, I did not set out for my LinkedIn to become a key channel for Sybill. I think it started from, just even in terms of how this started, is that I really like creating content about product marketing in a very, like, build in public sort of way. Like, this is what I'm working on and kind of done that in varying degrees depending on the org and how comfortable they are with me sharing.
[00:33:04] But this sort of started in that, like the, the Gong Wrapped post, for example, technically six different accounts in the Sybill team and org posted that, that wrapped carousel. Mine took off, and I think I have some theories on why some of the-- Like Talia Heller actually did a write-up of the whole tactic, and, uh, she had a hypothesis on why, and I think, I think she was probably right.
[00:33:29] But I sort of, it was sort of part of me like stumbling into, oh, like there's something about when I attach my face to this and I actually like, in a very faced way to be the antithesis of like a Sybill page, like not faceless, but like it's me, It's Colin. I think that draws people's attention in a unique way.
[00:33:51] And I'm at a spot where I, I recognize there's pros and cons to it. So like a potential risk here is I got a, I got a direct [00:34:00] outreach, uh, DM yesterday where someone, the, like the first thing they said was, "Hey, Mr. Gong Hater, H, number eight R, Gong Hater." And, and then literally someone else was like, "Oh Yeah like I've seen a lot of your content.
[00:34:14] The whole, quote, 'Gong fight me' thing is really working for you guys." These are two DMs in the last 48 hours.
[00:34:21] So the cons are like, am I becoming known as this person who's just picking a fight with Gong? That's a potential like risk that you take. The pros are though, that I think in a lot of ways product marketers are uniquely positioned to become the face of the product because they know the message better than anyone, and they know the product better than everyone.
[00:34:41] Uh, or ideally, they know what matters and how to communicate that product better than anyone. And so I think it has naturally sort of worked where, yes, people associate the Gong things, but I'm also like constantly posting product updates about Sybill. Like mo- if you look back, like most of it is just classic product marketing of like talking about the product and how it works and why, what our thinking was
[00:35:01] going into it.
[00:35:01] Elle: Yeah,
[00:35:03] Collin: Yeah, there's these moments like, yeah, they're the moments that get more traction and heat. But I, I do think that this partially worked because a person was tied to it. I don't think it has to be your product marketer. I think picking someone though goes a long way. So like a good example is, Uh.
[00:35:20] a company Pylon.
[00:35:21] They're in the customer success space. They're actually kind of a similar tool, but in that category. And they very vocally com- they're I think series B, series A, series B startup. They very vocally compete against Zendesk to the point where their CEO had the headline in, on LinkedIn where it said, "Building the Zendesk Killer."
[00:35:41] Elle: Uh.
[00:35:42] Collin: And I, I think that worked for them. I think they are another kind of example of they came along, they picked their Goliath, they used the luxury that they had of being a smaller brand and were vocal, and then they attached a person to it, so the CEO ended up being the [00:36:00] embodiment. For me, it just I think worked for my personality and even I think product marketers
[00:36:05] Tangent, I think product marketers are an interesting-- They can be a user of Sybill. They're not like the person we sell to, but like every product marketer I know who has access is like, "This thing is so sick." So anyway, it was a little bit of a, a little, to quote our friend Bob Ross, it was a little bit of a happy accident, uh, a happy little tree of an accident that I became this kind of face, face of the brand.
[00:36:27] I do think you have to have a face. It just, if you're gonna make bold claims to your competitor, it's almost like there's a certain courage of not being a coward. Like
[00:36:34] someone I completely agree. I was-- That's exactly what I was gonna say, and I'm, I'm glad you mentioned that, like, having the courage to be bold requires a, a person's name and face behind it
[00:36:45] Yeah. And I, I think I'm okay with the risk because I stand by the approach I've taken. And there's, there's a risk that someone would say, "Oh, I would never hire Collin because he was way too aggressive with Gong." I probably wouldn't do this play in every company. You have-- Again, it has to be the right, right company.
[00:37:01] You have to have, like, the-- You have to ha-ha- be in that kind of, like, hierarchy where they're bigger than you and you're smaller. You have to have the, a precedent for switching. You know, there's, there's got to be real frustrations you can speak to. But for me, it's been, proven to be worth it
[00:37:17] Elle: Got it. Okay. So taking us back to our playbook, we have step one to make sure that you are very clear on your differen- differentiation. Step two was to lean into the customer's frustration with your competitor. Step three was to build out that full funnel kind of narrative and, um, maybe not necessarily all every single tactic because as you, um, you know, pointed out, sometimes it's just opportunistic and you go with it.
[00:37:48] And then what's kind of wrap us up here? Like, I feel like maybe we kind of got into it a little bit, um, with the using you as, you know, the, the person leading it on the social side, but like [00:38:00] what-- how do we wrap this all up?
[00:38:01] Collin: Yeah
[00:38:02] I think the simplest way to put it would be to put a face on it. Someone, someone has to own it. And if you're a product marketer and you're thinking about the distribution here, it does not have to be you. It can be. Uh, for me, it worked out for it to be, is it, if depending on if you have someone, say you're selling to salespeople, like if we had the right salesperson in our org, it, who wanted to be kind of this persona public, it could've been them.
[00:38:25] Or if you sell to customer success, you could have your CSM be this person and, you know, like you can find sort of that person. But I think someone tying their face to the whole thing just helps. It gives a credibility to the whole thing. And people f- now peop- uh, the kind of psychological element of this is people will see Gong stuff and they will remember their...
[00:38:48] They will feel a personal connection to me, and they will feel like a sense of discontent or frustration at Gong just because of me. And that's like, you can't do that. You can't tap into that if there's not a person, because there, people feel way more disproportionate loyalty to people than they do to a Yes.
[00:39:07] Uh
[00:39:08] Elle: I'm so glad you called that out. Yeah, there's so much psychological, um, b- you know, just facts, like coming out of it using a strategy like this.
[00:39:18] Collin: Yeah.
[00:39:18] Elle: I'm sorry I cut you off. You were gonna...
[00:39:19] Collin: No, Uh,
[00:39:20] no, that's exactly it. It's, it's just using... I think that psychology plays to plays to your benefit. You know, and r- again, didn't set out for it, kind of stumbled a lot of this by accident, but I would recommend it. It was a lot of learning as we go. Again, I've never ran anything this aggressive, so it was, I was learning it, and I'd hadn't, didn't know a lot of people who had ran as aggressive of campaigns.
[00:39:40] So it was
[00:39:40] a
[00:39:40] Elle: The other... Oh, of course, and I feel like with anything that's, you know, bold and new, there's gonna be learning. The other thing that I was thinking, that like, again, if you're coaching me through this and I'm, I'm trying to run this thing for the first time,
[00:39:54] I would f- I would want someone, whoever's face is behind making these big, [00:40:00] bold...
[00:40:01] sharing these big, bold narratives, I would want it s- I would want their personality to match because it couldn't-- Like, if someone was, um, you know, just had a different temperament, and just it wasn't kind of, you know, in their nature to, you know, make some really big, bold, I don't even wanna say digs, but, like, you know, to lean into some of those, to some of that friction that you might have, like with, you know, another brand.
[00:40:29] Some people are, feel uncomfortable being in that position. So I think, like, to, and you might have mentioned this already, but, or maybe you mentioned it on our prep call, but finding someone who the personality fit to, to share the bold narrative, I think is really important, is a really important part of success when you're pi-picking the person who's, who's kind of running some of these.
[00:40:52] Collin: Totally. I think for me it just sort of worked out that I like a little bit of conflict, and it's probably dopamine-seeking behavior of some sort. But like I was, I, I like it. I think the whole thing is exciting and fun, so it worked. There are other people who, like, the idea of this public conflict, like for example, my wife could never.
[00:41:10] She's not a product marketer, but this is like, would not be her cup of tea. Um, and I think just being honest about that, if that's not you, then you're, you shouldn't be the person to do this. But there probably is someone... If your CEO honestly doesn't believe in the product enough to be this way, it's like, well, you might have bigger problems.
[00:41:26] Um, or if someone at the executive level doesn't believe in the product enough to kind of be that way, you would have bigger problems. But someone, if it's not you, it can be someone who's comfortable with that, has a tolerance for that kind of conflict
[00:41:38] Elle: Yes, yes, so we need someone with really deep conviction, so deep that they, if they weren't originally comfortable with conflict, they will be.
[00:41:48] Collin: Yeah. And it's, it's so funny calling it conflict, like that this is the most drama thing. It's like, let's be real. We are selling software to other people who are selling software to other people selling software. It's like none of
[00:41:59] this [00:42:00] is that serious. Um, like, I don't know. It's-- I think I like to remind myself that like if I stop selling Sybill, nobody dies.
[00:42:08] You know? Like
[00:42:09] this is a...
[00:42:09] Elle: That's why, that's why
[00:42:11] I call it more like, it's more like friction than conflict to me. You
[00:42:15] know? It's like, it's a
[00:42:16] Collin: Yeah,
[00:42:17] Elle: bit of like, "Oh, I don't want to offend you. Your product's not good." You know? Like, it's
[00:42:21] Collin: Yeah. Which people in other, other streams do this all the time. It's just like B2B, we're not used to this level of... I don't know, it's like almost there was like a, there was a really popular rule once upon a time of like, I still hear it, it's like, "Don't talk about your competitors, it just gives them attention."
[00:42:38] And I could not disagree with that. take
[00:42:41] more, particularly in our position. I think, again, flip it, Gong should not give any of their public time to us. They shouldn't, 'cause they have the upper hand. When you have the-- when you do not have the upper hand, it would be, it'd be amiss to not take that opportunity
[00:42:55] Elle: Yeah. Yep. Totally agree. Okay, last question for you on this topic, Collin. Um, what's one piece of advice that you would want, uh, PMMs to walk away with who are trying to go bold with a competitive, um, you know, a, a strategy like this?
[00:43:13] Collin: my advice would probably be to push, push the boundaries. I mean, even kind of as we were hinting at before, the boundaries are so tame actually. Like when you think about what, what people are typ- often doing in this space and the stuff that causes, like stirs up gossip or controversy, con- controversy in B2B.
[00:43:31] I would say one, pushing that limit. And then I think second is to take the opportunity that you uniquely have. like if you are in this spot, you have a unique opportunity your competitor does not, and I would highly recommend you, you take it. It's-- this?
[00:43:45] is, it's, it's a str- it's not just a, uh, it's not just being aggressive for aggressive sake, it's a strategy play, an advantage that you have that they do not have that I think is really valuable to that opportunity
[00:43:58] Elle: Absolutely. Yeah, why wouldn't you wanna [00:44:00] run every opportunity you can to try to get ahead, you know? Why would not, um, you know, obviously not in ways that are ethical and good,
[00:44:08] Collin: Yeah. Maybe in three words, maybe in three words the advice is just go for it. Go
[00:44:13] for it. Like, like
[00:44:13] actually go for it. Like do the competitive campaign, do the idea, the unhinged idea that. started in Slack, which is how some Yeah. Like actually
[00:44:23] do good. So good. Um, well, thank you so much. This was such a good case study. Um, I'm really eager to hear how people, how some of the listeners put it into practice. So if any listeners out there are, um, executing on something similar, come back, tell us how it went.
[00:44:38] Yes, please message me if you do
[00:44:40] Elle: All right. Okay, so now it's time for the next segment of the show.
[00:44:44] This is the messaging critique. So this is where we as product marketing experts get to analyze real world messaging. Um, and the fun part is, Collin, as the guest on my show, you get to pick the company or campaign that we are looking at today. Very quickly, I'm gonna outline... Yeah, very quickly, I'm gonna outline some, uh, ground rules.
[00:45:01] So first, we're gonna pick a company where you understand the target audience really well. Wouldn't be fair for me to analyze messaging on a company that I know nothing about, and I don't know who their target audience is. So who am I to say whether or not their messaging is effective or not? Um, and then we're gonna talk about what the me- what's working really well, what's not working at all, and, uh, how you'd iterate on it.
[00:45:23] What advice do you have to the PMM out there to take it to the next level? So without further ado, yeah, please reveal the
[00:45:31] Collin: All right. So I've already talked about them on this call, but I am going to talk about Zendesk. So if you don't know Zendesk, Zendesk is in the customer support space. They have a, have a platform where you can take in customer support tickets, resolve those tickets, and they ran a campaign, I think this was like two or three weeks ago, where this was, this was their headline: "Want to talk to a human?
[00:45:55] Call your mom. Self-improving AI agents are here." [00:46:00] That was the,
[00:46:02] Elle: Womp, womp,
[00:46:03] Womp, Like, no.
[00:46:04] Collin: so they, yeah, the call-- We'll call it from henceforth the Call Your Mom campaign. And so that, that's the campaign, and it was trying to support their AI agent's launch
[00:46:18] Elle: Um, I have my thoughts. What are yours?
[00:46:24] Collin: Okay
[00:46:25] I'll start with the positive. I wanna follow the rules of what I, what I loved might be strong, but the positive is the, there's a very clear establishing of the alternative. Like they are saying there are, there's human customer support and there are agents. Like these are the two options, and they are making a case that these self-improving AI agents are the better option.
[00:46:48] And I do think like some-- there's a lot of product marketing that doesn't, or a lot of marketing out there that doesn't even name the alternative. And I think even to, for them, the competition in, is the alternative in some strange ways or to like, probably more the old way of doing it. That's, the positive.
[00:47:03] They've, they've
[00:47:04] established the, the alternative that's actually a really good point. I, I, I didn't think about that the first time that I looked at this, and I think you're right. And okay, all right.
[00:47:14] Elle: I'm
[00:47:15] Collin: it's easier to roast than it is to compliment, so I, I have my feelings on what needs, what, where we need
[00:47:21] Elle: You're right. That's totally fair. I, I l- I appreciate that, that line of thinking. Okay, so that's what's working well. What is not working well here?
[00:47:32] Collin: So I think there were a couple areas where this misfired. Uh, the first one is just customer sentiment. I think the risk they make here?
[00:47:39] is trivializing or minimizing their customer. So their customer is CS people, the people that you would talk to if you had a problem with a product. And there's kind of this like trivializing and almost mocking of that person, that I think is a miss.
[00:47:58] Uh, not intended, but I [00:48:00] think is a
[00:48:00] Elle: Yeah, I was gonna say I don't think it was intended, but
[00:48:02] Collin: Now, the second layer I think is an end user sentiment. I think most people actually still want to talk to humans. Like a lot of people like talking to humans when they have a problem. And so I don't think the right angle is, mocking that desire. That is like that's what the market wants, whether you like it, Zendesk, like that's what a lot of people actually still do prefer.
[00:48:26] And so mocking it's probably not the answer. Um, and then I think the third one is probably the, maybe the one of the bigger issues is just like the sensitivity and, and timing of this, is that this campaign launched like two or three weeks before Mother's Day. And I think even like some of the best brands, like Kroger did this recently, where like Kroger sent an email where that w- a couple weeks ago that said, "Hey, would you like to opt out of Mother's Day communications?"
[00:48:54] And they basically said, "Mother's Day is hard for some of us. Do you wanna opt out?" And I think they're... It, the same problem would've existed if they said, "Call your dad." But like I do think people, people have complicated relationships with their parents, people have complicated relationships to Mother's Day, and they stacked those two and managed to hit both of them at the same time, which to me feels just like miss, miss, miss a-across, across the board.
[00:49:20] Elle: Yeah, I totally agree. And just to-- I think the, the part that probably, and, and I might be speaking to this from my own sensitivity. I-- my mom passed away not
[00:49:33] too long ago,
[00:49:34] so I, I can't... Thank you. Yeah, I can't call my mom. And, and which, which takes me, uh, completely away from whatever message they were trying to communicate.
[00:49:44] And that's, um, if I'm-- look, I found the, um, after we, you know, were chatting about this earlier, I found the-- one of the, and also if it's still around, I'll put it in the, in the, um, in the show notes. But I found-- [00:50:00] it looks like maybe Zendesk has removed the post, but someone screenshotted it.
[00:50:05] So, but I fe- I s-
[00:50:07] Collin: post
[00:50:08] Elle: yeah, but I ha- so I've, I've got the screenshot, so it'll be in the show notes.
[00:50:12] But, um, that's exactly what other people had commented on, that like, you know, as you pointed out, some people have complicated, you know, associations with Mother's Day, and it's just really-- uh yeah, it's just-- it almost, it feels like either someone was, um, you know, who was ever putting this campaign together, they were trying to go really bold with the naming the alternative as, as you were pointing out, but maybe didn't have some of those filters
[00:50:41] that you talked about in your own, you know, playbook of, of going bold.
[00:50:46] so what advice or how, you know, if you were kind of coaching the PMMs here, like how would
[00:50:51] Collin: Yeah.
[00:50:52] Elle: how would you help them-- how would you help redirect, I guess, kind of the, the
[00:50:56] Collin: Yeah.
[00:50:57] Elle: they had?
[00:50:57] Collin: I, I think if I were trying to do the same launch and I wanted to keep the alternative, I think I would try to keep that clear alternative, but I would totally change the tone and message and do some like playful self-deprecation. So probably the way I would do it is something like, "Hey, this is Susan.
[00:51:15] Everyone-- Uh, she runs your customer success team. Everyone loves Susan, but Susan can't be everywhere at once. So when there isn't Susan, there are a self-improving AI agents to handle your, all of your customers' needs." That's the angle that I would take. Like, I would actually flip it and say, like lean into the fact that people like talking to humans and you just name the obvious limitation that's there.
[00:51:37] You've not attacked-- I would leave the mothers out of this
[00:51:41] Elle: Yeah.
[00:51:41] Collin: one, that's a good rule of thumb in general of marketing unless you're-- Yeah, is don't, don't, don't bring people's moms into it. And I think I would, I would change the whole tone where it's still like it could be charming and still name that alternative, and even elevate your customers 'cause they're like, "Oh yeah, I see myself [00:52:00] in Susan."
[00:52:00] Like I've-- like I-- for us, our Susan is Sarah. Our customers freaking love Sarah. Uh, like
[00:52:06] Elle: Right
[00:52:07] Collin: I'm not trying-- I, I think Zendesk could come along and say, "We're not trying to change that," but
[00:52:11] Elle: Totally
[00:52:12] Collin: Susan's one person. When Susan's not available, you have these AI agents who can it
[00:52:18] Elle: You know what I really love about that idea, and I hope Zendesk hears this episode and takes this idea and then pays us for it. But
[00:52:26] Collin: All right.
[00:52:27] Elle: I ... Right? Yeah. I need, I need a little, little extra side stuff. So what they should do to just to, like, take, iterate on your idea even further, is to pick real customers that they have who are, like, really incredible at their jobs, and then, like, do full-on profiles, like, about them featuring why they're so good at their job.
[00:52:48] You could have, like, feedback or quotes from some
[00:52:50] of their own peers. You know what I mean? So it's just like a love shower
[00:52:55] on feature like 10 different customer
[00:52:58] Collin: success people at zendesk.com, zendesk.com/henry,
[00:53:03] Elle: Yeah.
[00:53:04] Yes. Yes. Yes, yes. And it could even be like, "We're not kidding, like Susan really is a bad A." Like look at, like, and you could like get like, I mean, of course approved from the customer and the customer's company, but like you could like show how, "Oh yeah, she's gotten 10 promotions in, you know, the last 10 years of her career.
[00:53:23] She's gotten this, this, and that, and this award and this achievement," and the, you know, the, the proof behind why she's so amazing. Um, that way it becomes-- That way, now you have something that like your customers want to share. So it'll help your campaign about your self-improving AI agents. Not ne- I mean, I don't know if it'd go viral, but it would certainly be something that would leave your customers feeling, as you said, a stronger attachment to.
[00:53:49] And if we use more of your playbook from earlier, you talked about putting a face behind some of these bold claims that you're making, and then people then build up these loyalties to the person. [00:54:00] And so it's obviously a bit different because we're not using one person, we're using lots of people that are, uh, that's a bit more personalized, but then like their, their audiences are gonna be more loyal to that person
[00:54:11] Collin: Oh, 100%.
[00:54:12] Elle: you know,
[00:54:13] Collin: Well, I can picture the comments section too, like yeah, when they launch it and like everyone from that company is like, "Oh, Suzy, we love her."
[00:54:19] Elle: Yes, exactly. I'm not surprised at all. She's amazing. Yeah,
[00:54:24] Collin: Yeah. All right, Zendesk, Yeah. your move.
[00:54:28] Elle: Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly. Uh, my Venmo is like
[00:54:33] Collin: Uh
[00:54:35] Elle: just kidding. Just kidding. Okay, seriously though, um, Zendesk, we have some really good ideas for you, so please let us know what you think.
[00:54:43] Collin: Yeah, I would love it if, if Zendesk PMM... Sorry for the harsh words earlier, if you hear this.
[00:54:48] Elle: I know. You guys, you guys had your own backlash I, I think from the, the comment section. Well, I, I think it was well-intended. I don't think the, intention was to be, you know,
[00:55:00] Collin: No, I think that, I mean, again, to like the what was good about it is the copy was clear. It was lo- like self-improving AI agents is understandable enough, at least in my opinion. And then like they had very like colloquial copy. They were trying to be bold. Like I get all that.
[00:55:14] Elle: Totally.
[00:55:15] Yeah. Um, it's okay. There's opportunity to correct, and we just gave you a really golden idea, so I hope you go with it and pay us for it. Um, all right. So Collin, one thing that I like to make, um, space for on this podcast is a moment of gratitude because as product marketers, we never get to where we are in our careers alone.
[00:55:34] We're always learning and growing and building off of one another, and frankly, we're all better for it. Um, so before we wrap up, I just want to say a genuine thank you for coming on the show and sharing your insights and all the effort and work that you put into prepping for this episode. Um, I really appreciate it,
[00:55:51] and so does the PMM community, so yeah.
[00:55:54] Thank you.
[00:55:54] Collin: fun
[00:55:55] Elle: Yeah, and in turn, I would love to hear some shout-outs from your [00:56:00] perspective of some amazing PMMs who have shaped the awesome PMM that you are today. So let's hear it. Who are, who are the shout-outs going to?
[00:56:09] Collin: Okay, a couple stand out. One is the godfather of PMM, Jason Oakley. Uh, Jason has, from like my most baby days as a PMM, just been very consistently supportive and available and extended resources over and over again. So Jason, you're the man. Thank you. He actually helped me get this job at Civil even.
[00:56:32] So like there's just--
[00:56:34] Someone reached out to him saying, "Hey, we're looking for a h- a
[00:56:36] PMM," and Jason referred me. So I literally would not be here if it were not for Jason.
[00:56:40] Elle: Oh, so good
[00:56:41] Collin: And then another one that stands out is Julien Sauvage. Uh, he's CMO at Cordial now, but came out through product marketing. Again, someone who's just been very, uh, available, just like been, been someone I could call and ask questions about my career and process stuff with and just is a really good
[00:56:58] dude.
[00:56:59] And then, a-- Tamara Grzyminski is in that lineup too. Shout out to Tamara. And then my friend Eric Holland, who I, I te- Eric Holland of We're Not Marketers fame. I text-- He and I text like almost daily. So we've just become real, like real supports. Like he's given me a lot of courage to be very bold. I bounced the, the whole April Fools D- April Fool's Day idea, I bounced off of Eric.
[00:57:24] So, um, shout out to Eric too
[00:57:27] Elle: Oh, I love that. You've got a team of like mentors and peers who are, who have not only shaped who you are, but are continue to shape who you are and where you're going as a PMM, so, so grateful for that. They are good people too, by the way. All of them, by the way, have gotten shout-outs on the show before.
[00:57:44] So if that do-
[00:57:46] if that... No, no, but like, if that doesn't tell you how awesome they are, I love it. Um, all right. Seriously, though, thank you, Collin, so much. This was such a great conversation.
[00:57:57] Collin: Thanks, Al. Appreciate it
[00:57:58] Elle: Yeah, and [00:58:00] hey, PMM listeners, if you like this episode, please share it with a PMM friend, and I'd be so grateful if you would leave a review.
[00:58:05] It helps tremendously with our reach. Thank you so much for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
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