Claude Code Your Next Launch Like A Vivun PMM
Product marketing is splitting into two groups right now. In group one, you have PMMs using AI to complete tasks faster. They spin up messaging, write narratives, create enablement, and move on. In group two, you have PMMs using AI to operationalize deep thinking. They pressure test positioning from multiple customer perspectives, synthesize patterns across dozens of interviews, and turn that into an always on system that keeps working after the launch. Most of us started in the first camp. The strongest PMMs are outgrowing it.
Today’s episode is one of the best examples I have seen of that done well. We are talking about how you reposition an entire company at breakneck speed without losing the plot. How you take a company known for one persona and shift the narrative toward another, while also building internal systems that keep every team speaking the same language.
And I could not think of a better person to have this conversation with than Ryan Radcliffe. Ryan leads product marketing at Vivun, where he has been at the center of a massive positioning shift as the company evolved from serving sales engineers to introducing a new product for sellers called Hero. What I love about Ryan’s approach is that this was not a throw some prompts into Claude and hope for the best situation. It was deeply operational and deeply strategic. He built a 40 page messaging and persona manifesto grounded in research, stakeholder alignment, customer psychology, and voice of customer insights, then used that system to move incredibly fast. We are talking build-a-brand-new-website-in-two-weeks fast.
Operationalizing a Brand New Narrative
When Ryan joined, the challenge was clear. Vivun needed to reposition around Hero. That meant moving from one core audience to another, and making sure the company did not sound like it was trying to be two things at once.
He started with clarity. Who are we for now? What problem are we solving? What do we do differently, and why should anyone believe us? He worked from the executive narrative down into persona definitions, positioning, proof points, and language guidelines. Then he documented it in a way that could be reused, not just read. That manifesto became the source of truth. It also became the input for everything that followed.
Where Claude Actually Fits
The interesting part is not that Ryan used Claude. It is how he used it. He loaded Claude with the persona research, the messaging framework, the narrative, and the copy guidelines so the outputs stayed consistent and on brand.
That is how you avoid the usual AI problem. Hallucinations, generic phrasing, and content that sounds fine but does not match what your company actually believes. In Ryan’s setup, Claude becomes a constrained system. It can move fast because the boundaries are clear.
From Messaging Framework to Live Website
Ryan described the moment it really clicked. The team needed a hero website in a couple of weeks. They built page frames, pulled the HTML, dropped it into Claude alongside the messaging and persona framework, and had Claude fill in the copy. It got them most of the way there, then the team tweaked and shipped.
That is the shift. The manifesto was not just a document, but a way for the company to create consistent messaging quickly, without scope creep, and without starting from scratch every time.
Messaging Critique: UserGems
We also looked at UserGems for our messaging critique. The big theme was something you are seeing everywhere right now. AI flavored language that sounds impressive but does not say much. Broad claims, fluffy descriptors, and positioning that tries to appeal to everyone.
Ryan’s point was simple. The fastest way to lose trust is to sound generic. The strongest messaging is specific about who it is for, what it does, and why it is different. Especially in AI, where everyone is saying the same thing.
The takeaway from Ryan’s approach is not “use Claude.” It is build the strategy so well that Claude can run it. Do the research, get alignment, write the manifesto, create the constraints. Then let AI help you scale execution without losing the plot.
If you’re heading into a launch or a repositioning, this is a good reminder that the best AI workflows are not prompt libraries, but strong systems built on clarity.
LINKS
Messaging Critique (UserGems): https://www.usergems.com/
Connect with Ryan:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/radcliff/
Connect with Elle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/
-
[00:00:42] Elle: So I've started to notice something over the past several months. Product marketing is splitting into two groups. In group one, we have the PMMs who are using AI to complete a task faster. They're spinning up messaging, writing narratives, or creating enablement materials, et cetera. And then in group two, we have the PMMs who are using AI to operationalize deep thinking.
[00:01:06] They pressure test positioning from multiple customers' perspectives, or they synthesize patterns across dozens of interviews, all in real time or as an always-on system. And I think we all fell into that first camp when we all first started with AI. But what I'm seeing now is that the strong PMMs are now outgrowing that, and they're operationalizing with AI.
[00:01:29] Today's episode is one of the best examples I've seen of that done well. Today, we're talking about how you reposition an entire company at breakneck speed without losing the plot. How you take a company known for one persona and completely shift the narrative toward another, while also building the internal systems that keep every team speaking the same language.
[00:01:53] And I could not think of a better person to have this conversation with than today's guest, Ryan Radcliffe. Ryan leads [00:02:00] product marketing at Vivun, where he's been at the center of a massive positioning shift as the company evolved from serving sales engineers to introducing a new product for sellers.
[00:02:11] What I love about Ryan's approach is that this was not some, like, throw some prompts into Claude and hope for the best type of situation. This was deeply operational, deeply strategic. He built a 40-page messaging and persona manifesto grounded in research, stakeholder alignment, customer psychology, voice of customer insights, all the good stuff, and then he used those systems to move incredibly fast.
[00:02:35] We're talking, like, build a brand new website in just two weeks fast. Super crazy. With that, Ryan, I'm so excited to have you here today. Welcome to the show
[00:02:44] Ryan: Thank you, Elle. Thanks so much for having me. I love that intro. Uh, I love the energy that you have. I'm such a fan of this podcast. I'm so glad to be here. This is a topic that I think about every day, so I'm excited to get into it
[00:02:56] Elle: Yay. Thank you so much for saying so. okay. So let's get started with something really simple for the listeners today. What is Vivin? And you just launched this new product called Hero. How does that fit into the story? Just give us some background context on all of that
[00:03:13] Ryan: Absolutely. So for background context for people, Vivint is the company and Hero is the product that we build. And the easiest way that I think about that is like Anthropic is the company and Claude is the product. It's the same idea. Hero is an AI sales teammate. It joins live calls with sellers. It knows the deals, it knows their products, it knows their customers.
[00:03:37] It helps them in those moments, those key moments that actually decide whether that deal goes forward in a very proactive way. So before the call, it's getting you ready fast. During the call, it's really there for the seller, like when they have a question that they don't know how the answer for. Like, if you asked me a really hard question and I had Hero on, it would like give me a response for you, which would be [00:04:00] amazing.
[00:04:01] Uh, and then after the call, it handles up all those things that sellers don't wanna do, right? They wanna think about the next call. They don't wanna update the CRM or anything like that. So I, I love the solution that our product team and our engineering team has built. most sales tools are working before the conversation or after it, and Hero's right there inside.
[00:04:19] Elle: I love that. So basically keeping the seller's skill in the field versus taking their time to do stuff like update the CRM. So keeping all the insights in the, in the right places, keeping the skills in the right places. So good. Okay. So now I want to get into the case study bit of all this because it's so fascinating to me.
[00:04:39] So you joined the company, at this really interesting inflection point where they were shifting from sales engineers to sellers with this product called Hero. and from what you shared with me before, this was so much more than just, like, a messaging refresh. Like, it was pretty, a pretty major shift, like an identity shift for the company even with this new audience. So
[00:05:01] take us back to that moment. Like, what was happening internally when the team realized, like, "Okay, we need to reposition the whole company"?
[00:05:08] Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. So when I joined, Vivun really had deep roots with sales engineers. a product line, a whole slew of customers, really technical people supporting big deals. The company was so good at that, but the founders got really fired up about a completely different problem, and that's that whole thing about what if the seller, the person who's, has to perform, can get that expert support live on the call, right?
[00:05:35] So how I kind of phrase it all the time is like, we burned the boats, we built a whole new product. a completely different person, completely different problem. you know, the seller is the one performing, and that gap is everywhere in sales, and no one knew how to solve it. And so Hiro is actually an old product name that Vivun has brought back, um, to be a part of what we're doing now, which is very [00:06:00] cool.
[00:06:00] We had the copyright for this name, which is very exciting. Um, so the decision was made to go all in this new shift, new branding, new colors, new website, all of it, sort of a new way of thinking about Vivun as this kind of like overarching research firm on top of Hiro. and so we needed a whole new story.
[00:06:19] We needed to make sure that how we were thinking about personas was correct. new point of view. That was really the job, right? Come in, Q1 started on February 1st. I started like a week before that. and so that was it. Operationalize a brand new narrative from scratch. And so what we did, uh, what we started by doing was building the 40-page positioning and messaging doc, and then a persona doc, doing the heavy research, um, doing all that with Claude, as the foundation, uh, and then sharing it with the company and really making it like this operationalized thing.
[00:06:55] and so the result of all that, which has been amazing, is that, my cohort and the rest of the marketing team, my, my, uh, director of, of growth marketing, demand gen, she really was able to take this and have it be one of her main inputs for making a whole-- new website in a matter of weeks. Just incredible work on her part.
[00:07:13] and this was a main driver for getting that done. Uh, and it's really incredible. We did a soft launch on April 6th. We did the big launch, uh, three days ago on May 5th. The new website in two weeks, the company aligned. it's really incredible how this framework has really given this like consistent DNA, um, to everything we do, and it's, it's really exciting.
[00:07:34] Elle: I love that, and that all happened so quickly. And remind me, how big is Vivint? Like, how many, how many employees?
[00:07:41] Ryan: Vivint's around, I think we're around 75 people
[00:07:43] Elle: Okay. But still, it's a lot of people, it's a lot of, um, teams to try to rally around. I mean, I worked at a company about that size a long time ago, and it takes a little bit of work to try to get everybody, you know, speaking the same language. and it sounds [00:08:00] like you had some really strong stakeholders to help pull this off too, which is always a bonus.
[00:08:06] and when you first build, kind of like generally speaking, it sounds like your approach was, okay, like let's all get clarity on something. Like you put so much effort, and I w- and I do wanna get into this. Um, I'll have more questions on this in a, in just a bit. But you put so much effort into building that 40-page manifesto, which is the opposite of what I'm hearing as advice from other product marketers out there who are really good at their jobs.
[00:08:33] I err more on heavy research. I like doing that kind of activity. It just, it helps me personally feel like I'm being a better PMM and be just more, get more confidence and get more conviction in whatever narrative I'm stringing up. So I'm in camp, like, yes, more research. But, um, but you, you got clarity on positioning, you got clarity on personas.
[00:08:55] You put all of that together in this like 40-page manifesto, and then you operationalized it. So I'm a little curious now, like when you were building those manifestos and like, then like the systems in place, was there a moment when you realized like, "Oh, this is how we're gonna change, like how the whole company communicates?"
[00:09:15] Versus like, was it like you, was it very methodical, like you knew that that was going to affect it? Or was it like, "No, no, no, this is just my process"? You know, kind of talk through that a little bit.
[00:09:25] Ryan: Yeah. Thank you for that question. So this kind of starts from a couple years ago where I ma-- I tried to make a version of this in ChatGPT for my former-- in a former life, and there was a lot of hallucinations, and it just wasn't lining up with what I needed it to be, right? I needed it to work for people who were not critically looking at the messaging like I was, right?
[00:09:46] Like you and I and product marketers, like, we love looking at those little things and those little things that are-- that can come up wrong and, and change them. But I needed someone not so close to that to be able to take something and run with it and not get caught [00:10:00] with a problem. And so coming here to Vivint, I was so excited at how big of a Claude sort of, uh, momentum was happening here at the company.
[00:10:09] We're using Claude for so much stuff. And then I just love April Dunford and Anthony Pieri and some of these, like, big product marketing voices, and I just thought, "This is gonna be so exciting for me. I'm gonna take this positioning and messaging framework that I've been really tasked to do," because what my boss did, w- we have an incredible CMO at Vivint, but he sat down with the founders and the E-suite and got the narrative from them.
[00:10:35] So I'm able to start with the narrative, and that's ama- that's a gift, right? 'Cause that's really hard work to get a bunch of leaders in a room and really decide on how we win the market. that. is step one in what April Dunford talks about, and he did that step. So that's amazing, is I get to come in with that and then building this whole thing out.
[00:10:55] And the reason why it was long and the reason why it was so complete is that I thought that if I could get this into Claude and really make sure I'm, like, dotting every I, crossing every T, that it can continue to give me the outputs I want. And where we really saw this was when the team turned around and said, "Hey, we need a hero website in a couple of weeks, and we're gonna build Page frames, and then I'm gonna download that page in HTML.
[00:11:23] I'm gonna throw it into Claude with all of my messaging and persona framework, and all of my persona research and the-- and all that stuff that I've built, and our copy guideline that we wrote, and I'm gonna say, "Take this HTML framework and m-Mad Lib this." Like, 'cause you know what we're all about. But like for example, we're gonna build a page, a, a homepage, like, and, and give me good copy.
[00:11:49] And it gives me like a 75% because of everything I've built in and, and all the stuff I put in, and I've taken like Fletch PMM frameworks and put them in there, and I've, I've like put all [00:12:00] these things in there and kind of built like my little like small language model in Claude. And the stuff it comes out with is like, all right, like we're gonna make some tweaks of course, but like this is really saving us.
[00:12:10] This is making sure that like we're not dealing with scope creep. that alignment was amazing in like getting a website, which can be such a, a bear of a project, really off the ground, was super cool
[00:12:23] Elle: I love that. Yes, and it's a really great example of doing all that research and creating these really deep like persona messaging narrative, messaging docs, right? That, pre-AI, these would sometimes be lengthy documents. I'm not sure about, I mean, 40 pages is, like, the longest that I've ever heard, but mine were pretty long.
[00:12:43] Mine would be, like, 15 pages, and I would always say that the purpose of these documents is not something that we hand out to our stakeholders. It's for the PMM to gain confidence. But what I like what you're doing is you're kind of like you're doing this really deep research, and you're using that to try to, what I think you were saying with your story, was to try to reduce the amount of hallucinating.
[00:13:09] Like, the more complete information that you're feeding into the system, the less likely that you'll get some of that hallucinating and the more accurate information you'll get as outputs. Is that kind of like an accurate description of, like, your, uh, the reasoning behind doing this, like, deep, building out those deep manifestos?
[00:13:30] Ryan: Yeah, I think so. It's like, I think PMM teams are really changing, right? Like I lead PMM here, but I don't have a team of PMMs anymore. And really my versions of my tabs of Claude are kind of like my PMM team. And so I want all of us to be, you know, running in the same direction. If I can fire off a project working on a webpage, and then I can fire off a project, you know, like w- working on a slide or like synthesizing maybe a conversation I have with an analyst or giving me [00:14:00] like all the notes I need to go into an analyst conversation, like I can have these different things running at the same time, but I have to be able to trust that they're all like exactly with me.
[00:14:10] Like I'm not gonna type in a prompt every time. And so I just wanted to not only me hold the system accountable, but the system like hold me accountable when I have ideas that can kind of go astray, which happens all the time, right? Like when we talk about value props, it's so easy to get into like time savings or these like little things, and I love that the system I built is like, "Hey, wait a minute.
[00:14:33] You know, that's not one of like the-- that's not one of the key things that we've sort of established in this framework," which is great. So I love that feedback loop.
[00:14:41] Elle: I didn't even think about it as a feedback loop.
[00:14:42] but that's an added bonus that, you know, maybe be, maybe intentional for you, but for me would've been more of like a happy accident. That's... Okay, so cool. okay, so what I wanna do now is basically take this, story, this case study, and turn it into a playbook.
[00:14:59] So let's assume that, you're coaching me on, on a similar situation or challenge that I have. Say that I've, you know, I work at a company and it's the parent company, but I'm releasing a new product. It's speaking to a completely different persona, and I've got ti- a tight timeline. I'm trying to do things really quickly within the next, like, you know, less than a month, um, we'll say, two to four weeks, and I want to operationalize it the same way that you did with Hero at Vivint.
[00:15:28] What is step one? Where do I get started with all of this?
[00:15:32] Ryan: Yeah. So the first thing I did was I, I had like the junior version of my framework, and then I had like the blown-out version. So the first things I have to kind of figure out right away, right, is like, who is the new person that we're building this for, right? And this is where some of that Anthony Pieri stuff gets into of like the wha- when would I use this?
[00:15:53] I got this 'cause I, I got really into some of these Exit Five podcasts, uh, in the last year, and that was something he jumped on about, is like there's [00:16:00] so much noise in the market. What people really wanna know is like, "Okay, you built this for me. When would I use this?" And then the question of like, who is this for?
[00:16:09] Really into those basic ideas, I think is huge. And then, uh, back to April Dunford, is like what's the condensed version of this framework? It's the who it's for, it's the problem we're solving, right? We've got to align how we see the problem the same way as the people we're trying to sell to. We've got to see the problem in the same way.
[00:16:29] what's our differentiated value? Of course, right? We've got to make sure that we define that really succinctly. So who it's for, what's the problem that we're solving for that person that it's for? What's the value that we bring? What makes how we're solving it different? what's the impact on their lives?
[00:16:49] What's the proof, right? That's my next section here. I have my kind of framework here on the side here. gotta have a
[00:16:54] classic
[00:16:55] positioning. So that's next, the positioning statement. and then something like we call benefits ladder, where we're looking at like what's the emotional benefits? what's the functional benefits?
[00:17:05] And so we kind of like put some of those together. and then, uh, the last line of it is like how to sanity check the new message. So for us it would be if this doesn't help a seller prepare, respond, or follow through when the pressure of the moment is on, then it doesn't belong in what we're doing. So that's kind of the, the initial thing, uh, of it.
[00:17:26] Yeah.
[00:17:26] Elle: So your step one is basically like do the classic product marketing work. Like who is it for? Why are we doing this? What's our differentiator? I love the benefits ladder. I haven't heard it articulated that way before. So good. but that's very classic. That's not like, "Hey, let's plug stuff into AI."
[00:17:46] I love that you didn't start there. You started with like do the classic product marketing work. and then once you have that, what do I do with that now? So let's say I, I did all those things and maybe I used some other tools to [00:18:00] do that, but, is that the manifesto or does that go into the manifesto?
[00:18:04] Ryan: So it's funny, it's kind of back to the feedback loop idea where, like, that's where we start with, like, really defining those things. And what, what's also funny about this scenario is that I'm brand new to a company, and so I'm pulling in the narrative and I'm kind of like, you know, in the Google Drive, like trying to find all the information and, and make sure I've got everything.
[00:18:22] And what actually ended up being very lucky for me was that I had to do this a couple of times because I left out some very key inputs. I, I've been at the company now for three months. I don't remember what those were, but I remember doing the big version and being like: Oh no, I missed some key things, and kind of going back through and doing it all again.
[00:18:44] of course, I'm using AI at that point with the help of AI. I start with those things, and then I'm getting into the complete framework of like, I wanna make sure I'm showing in this document, like how to use this document. Like what's its purpose? What's it for, right? That's kind of my like chapter zero of like, this is a positioning thesis. This is a new product.
[00:19:08] We do have customers, but like, like great product marketers say, like, we really need to, uh, have a lot more raving fans, uh, which we'll get, which will help us kind of refine who this is for. But, but I really established this as a positioning thesis, uh, who it's built for and all that stuff.
[00:19:26] And then the next 12 to 13 sections are the positioning foundation, uh, why market context, why now, all those kinds of things of like, sort of like classic narrative ideas of like, what's the fishbowl that we're in, right? It's a lot of that stuff around, which is a huge part of our narrative of how no one has any patience on a sales call, right?
[00:19:52] That's the world that sellers are in. That's the world that buyers are in. There's no patience. There's no time for, "Let me get back to you," or, "Let's have another [00:20:00] meeting." If we start from that angle of that true reality, then it's like, okay, we see the problem the same way that the person we're trying to sell it to does, right?
[00:20:10] And then it's like, well, we built something for, for helping you in that moment. So if we're seeing reality on the same page. So a lot of my manifesto is talking about, why we're sort of defining market reality in that way of how sales teams are operating, um, how important the moment is as a unit of value.
[00:20:30] what's the cost of missing that moment, right? Like, I'm being very verbose with all these things. Why existing approaches break down. as AI raises expectations, um, and sort of fits around sales deals, it's not really reducing the risk of that key moment. So it was really fun to kind of get into the, um, you know, the, uh, the Raskin style of like, what, Uh, what Zuora did years ago, the classic sort of strategic narrative deck. A lot of that was a lot of the front-loaded part of this manifesto to make sure that like we are defining the market, defining the problem before we even start to talk about like who Hiro is and who Vivid is.
[00:21:07] Elle: I love that. Yes, and I, I'm a huge fan of the Raskin style of storytelling. And what I love about this, okay, so part of your step one is, it was a little bit of your onboarding, of just kind of learning the product, learning the company, but that fit really nicely into building out the, okay, why are we doing this?
[00:21:28] Who is it for? What are our differentiators? And then moving, uh, kind of into step two, um, now you have that outline of the manifesto, so step two is kind of creating that master manifesto, and all of those other sections that you were mentioning that go into that, including the filters of, does something fit or not, and creating that criteria really helped you narrow down what goes into this and what doesn't in terms of, you know, aspects of not necessarily that narrative, but, like, the manifesto [00:22:00] itself.
[00:22:00] so I guess once I do all of that, assuming I've ... Now I've, I've got my manifesto, and I'm ... Now what do I, I do with that? Like it's, it's full of persona information. It's full of, you know, it's the narrative. It's, um, you mentioned a couple other things that you, like assets or documents that were used to kind of build out this Claude project.
[00:22:22] But like was there anything else that's more here, or are we ready to move on now to the next step of the process?
[00:22:28] Ryan: Yeah. So the rest of the manifesto is really we get into target personas, we get into like the core situation, right? Kind of back to that Anthony Pieri thing of like, when do I use this? When's the best moment? Uh, I love drawing from that. you know, old way, new way. What's required to win? Uh, that's another section.
[00:22:47] How hero meets all this. Differentiated value. and then there's like proof points, evidence, when would I use this? Key messaging outpoints. That's all the rest of the manifesto. But the other two key documents, we worked on a, on a copy guideline that's really more about like how we write, right? How, how, what's the way that we write?
[00:23:05] That's a key, that's a key input for a cloud project. and then the third one, the one that I've really kind of exploded on, and, and let me kind of open that up so I can talk about this, is I started to really build, uh, this huge persona research doc in Google. and that was really like defining the quota-carrying seller under pressure is what that is.
[00:23:26] Like this-- the, the person alone in the moment on the call. I had some early testimonials. I had some kind of like early ideas of who these people are, but then I got to use, uh, GetWise, which was really great for persona research and for really finding out what sellers are thinking in those moments. I went and crafted like my list of ultimate questions that I wanted to go ask sellers, and GetWise is an amazing partner for going out and conducting that research and finding sellers and asking them, like, for example, in my situation, like, " what are the two things that you [00:24:00] have to do before a call?"
[00:24:01] Like, "What's something that you're stressed out about during a call?" you know, "You have five minutes after your call ends, like walk me through those five minutes." And so really getting into like what it looks like as a seller. And what I love about what Vivint's doing is investing in that, in that time, right, for me to do that work, because we can't just sit back and just assume these things, right?
[00:24:24] Like every person's work and role in life is changing all the time. And so I've been in past scenarios where we just kind of assumed we knew the persona, and I love that we have like this living, breathing persona research, of course, very, you know, inspired by, by Lang and, and your-- the episode of the podcast that he did with you of how he's always talking to people.
[00:24:46] Um, he really got me into that of like, this is something that must continue to live. And so we did great work with GetWise that we're still doing, and then also my product team had an account with UserTesting, so devised a whole, um devised a whole survey. Um, and I go and I get 25 people, uh, every day answering those questions for me, bringing those results in.
[00:25:07] I have sellers from, from all over the world kind of telling me about their day. it's just amazing with these different sources of, of folks kind of coming in and, and really getting this like ultimate idea of like what is it like to be a seller? And then what that does for us, sorry, this is a long answer made longer, is it st- helps us start to really look at like what are the industries where we really are the best?
[00:25:30] Because that's the second assumption companies make is, "Oh, I already know the person I'm selling to," and then, "Oh, I already know like where these people work," right? The types of companies these people work at. And we're really finding incredible information by talking to people about these industries that we can actually be really great for that we weren't fully aware of.
[00:25:52] So, I mean, it's just great that Vivint is investing in all this research.
[00:25:56] Elle: I love that. Okay. And I think I misunderstood something, but I'm much more [00:26:00] clearer on it now. So actually I'm very grateful that you went very deep on that answer. So you started with, and r- I do a lot of parroting back because I wanna make sure that I'm following the story right and that I'm, I'm getting the playbook right.
[00:26:12] So you started with kind of like an outline of the why we're doing this, who's it for, you know, the benefits ladder, all of that. Then step two is kind of like, okay, now that turns into the manifesto, and the manifesto is this deep research
[00:26:25] on, maybe a, bits of like the market and why now and scenarios.
[00:26:32] But you have a completely separate document that's just for personas, and I love that you do that, and I appreciate you shouting out some tools that are helpful for doing that faster, and some of the tools you mentioned I have also used and love, and so can attest that they are really great tools, um, to use.
[00:26:49] and so now that I've, I've, let's just say that I've done all that deep research and like, yes, extra shout-out for Lang because it's, he's so right in the number... You have to be constantly talking to customers, and it's, you know, before AI, it was really hard to find time to do that. You had to make time for it, and it was quite a lot of effort.
[00:27:11] Now you can have these always-on systems and be constantly, maybe not necessarily, FaceTime with a customer, but at least having those always-on surveys while supplementing with smaller, more intimate one-on-one conversations is so helpful. so back to like, you know, actually I guess the next step would be like building the Claude project, and I just wanna make sure that I have like the documents that I should have in the Claude projects, right?
[00:27:39] You had the manifesto, which was like the deep research on like the product and the market, um, and the company and why it all fits so well together and why now. and then I'm not sure if this was in the, in the manifesto or if it's in the persona doc, but then you had like, you talked about the persona doc, and you talked about like very deep research like around emotional [00:28:00] benefits and, um, functional benefits, but then also scenarios where you win and use cases where you win and all of that good stuff.
[00:28:10] And then you also had like a tone of voice document, like a writing style document, which was helpful. You had the narrative that your CMO already got with all the executives in the room. Those are the four that I could think of. Is there anything else that should go into this Claude project?
[00:28:26] Ryan: No, those are the right ones, and I, I don't wanna take us on a tangent, but you're reminding me of something really important with this persona research. Like, what's great is like in this day, persona research is no longer like a vanity project. What's amazing is that I can take 20 documents of transcripts of conversations and like spreadsheets that I get from user testing and like all the downloads from GetWise, and I can throw them all in to, a separate project and be like, "Okay, tell me all about sellers."
[00:28:58] Like I no longer have to like sit there late at night like taking notes off of like, I mean, what-- I don't know what people did
[00:29:03] like 15 years ago, but it's like everything just comes together and gives me like the, the full picture. And that to me is great because what I'm doing now is I'm, I'm coming with gifts to my product team.
[00:29:15] that's what's so funny about product marketing is like one of the core things that we need to do as a company is be giving market signal to the product team, right? And so now we can do it in this like really great way. So, but you laid it all out, like it's the messaging framework, it's the persona doc, it's the copy guideline.
[00:29:33] Um, these are all the big players in my Claude project. And then what I'm doing is, 'cause I'm always nervous about hallucinations or something, is I'm like taking my persona research and I'm saying, "Okay, how's my messaging framework? Like, are we still right on? Are we still talking the right language?"
[00:29:50] And So
[00:29:50] everything's getting like these like feedback loops that I'm doing. I'm always kind of doing like a, like a BS test on everything, like making sure everything's like still [00:30:00] copacetic.
[00:30:01] Elle: I love that. Question about the feedback loops. is that purely human, or do you have AI help you or assist with the feedback loops?
[00:30:10] Ryan: Well, it's funny. I'll do things like I'll take my project and I'll take a whole bunch of research and I'll be like, "Here's a bunch of research. What do you think about the messaging framework?" And I'll kind of get like a, a summary back. And then I'll look at the summary and I'll get to kind of critique it and judge it, right?
[00:30:26] And I'll be like, "Actually, that's okay. Okay, give me a couple line items to change there." And, and so there is that discerning eye, and it makes me very grateful to be at this stage in my career where I've got some years of experience in this field and I can sort of see how things are feeling and I can, I can see where, where, you know, I've got my areas of drift.
[00:30:49] The tools aren't perfect either. Claude's got a little bit of drift. And so kind of working together and kind of finding that spot. but I think part of what makes it all work and w- I think why we're so lucky if you've got, um, a little bit of experience is like that you can kind of see that, that space of where, uh, where to fix things and where to le- let things go and, and you know, it's the writer and then you get to be the editor, Right.
[00:31:11] Elle: Right. Absolutely. And I love that, um, you called out n- the experience that's required to have that discerning eye when you're critiquing the AI output. and it's so valuable. I say that to all, junior PMMs or PMMs who are just making-- or y- if you're making a career pivot or whatever, to make sure that you build the craft and then use AI to 10X, your value.
[00:31:38] But you have to have the experience so you know what good looks like, so that when Claude or ChatGPT, whoever, like whatever AI tool of choice gives you a deliverable or an output, you can say like, "No, not good enough. No, that's not right?
[00:31:55] That's missing XYZ." So I totally agree with that. okay, [00:32:00] so let's get back to our playbook.
[00:32:02] So I have the Claude project. it's built with all of those, core documents. What do I do now? I can just use it for whatever kind of like deliverables I want to use. Like give me, give me some examples of like how you used your, Claude project to get some deliverables for this big shift for the company's narrative.
[00:32:21] Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. So before I was able to really go use it, had to get all that stakeholder approval. So what I did was I took this framework and I threw it, into, uh, make me a deck. Like make me a deck that argues for how important this was and let me get executive sign-off from everybody, right?
[00:32:39] So it's so important to get that weigh-in from the different folks, like from the product team, like are the claims accurate? From the sales team, like does this match how my conversations are going? Like from leadership, does this reflect our strategy? And then from the design team too of like, can we really express this visually?
[00:32:58] I own the framework, but it's so important that everyone's bought in, right? You've got to have that buy-in. And so that meeting went really well. I really, uh, focused on the sort of that image of like, ducks kind of flying in formation and how important that is. And I'm such a big believer that like a good company has a message and a differentiated value, but a great company, has the ability to make everybody fly in the same formation.
[00:33:27] That's that extra thing. And what I get excited about is like, I feel like it's never been easier to have that formation because we've got these guardrails that we're working with and these, these tools that kind of have that little bit of smarts to them. I mean, they're, they're getting better all the time, but like it's so exciting to be able to, uh, you know, 3X my work with something like Claude.
[00:33:49] And, um, you know, I'm definitely not a person who is building like autonomous agents or things that are just like going out and doing work. I really do have to be involved. and when I write a blog [00:34:00] using these tools, I am, you know, giving my thought leadership to the tool, tweaking, making sure it is what I want it to be.
[00:34:07] But, back to your question and give you some examples of what we do, you know, I can go into an analyst conversation and say, "Hey, I'm gonna be talking to an analyst at Forrester. I wanna be really clear about what we do with them, uh, to them, and I wanna like get their advice and I wanna see how they see the market, but I want to, you know, really clearly represent what we are and get feedback back from them."
[00:34:30] And that's the kind of work that would take you all day, and instead it takes you, you know, 15, 20 minutes, 'cause of course I go back and forth a couple times. But then Another amazing thing about the research is you know, I can, I can write a blog on why the moment is so important. But what I love is what, what's better about that, what Google and the LLMs wanna see, is they wanna see all the research I've done informing that opinion on our blog.
[00:34:56] And so, of course, all of this has started with Claude and like I get a first draft, I read it, I make changes. So we're kind of like going back and forth, new draft, new draft. When I get it to a pretty good point, then I give it an edit. but I love that it's like always sort of running off the DNA of who we are, how we talk, what our message is.
[00:35:16] It's like that's the starting point. sort of a side tangent. The product that we built is for sellers on the call. It's of course it's built on AI, and one of the big things we built was this sales reasoning model. And what this is doing is something that we, uh, that we talk about a lot, is that it's helping sellers avoid hallucinations because it's keeping you, away from like the hops that happen when you are too far from the source material, right?
[00:35:43] When you kind of go too far down the line, and they all do it. And so what's amazing about this reasoning model that we built into our product is that it's really keeping those hallucinations at bay. And I think I'm doing a little bit of the same thing in a marketing angle by always having this framework as my starting point for everything I [00:36:00] do.
[00:36:00] Elle: Yeah, it's-- keeping everything grounded, and I loved the visual that you explained when you went into that stakeholder meeting of ducks flying together synchronously. Yeah
[00:36:12] it's a strong visual, and it's one that y- you know, I would say everyone, every millennial or '90s kid who remembers Mighty Ducks, that's
[00:36:21] Ryan: Yeah
[00:36:22] Elle: that's exactly where my brain went to.
[00:36:24] But it's such a strong, like, you know, spirited, rallying the team, getting everybody on board. I imagine that was a helpful anecdote as you're trying to explain your thinking. And you mentioned, uh, I really appreciate, too, that you brought in the reasons why you think that meeting went so well. And a lot of that was because you did the foundational work in the manifesto, and you were just able to do it quicker with, um, this Claude project that you built.
[00:36:56] So now coming back to, and, and I also appreciate the examples that you gave, too. I can attest, like prepping for like a, a Gartner analyst call can take a long time. So brilliant use of your Claude project. Um, okay. So coming back to our playbook, I have the Claude project. Now I, um, you mentioned the feedback loops.
[00:37:19] Okay, so I build out like the deck, um, for like, you know, all the things that I wanna do with this big narrative and like the, the shift for the company. I get buy-in from all of my stakeholders and the executives. Is, is that kind of the end of the story? Now I just... Is it launch time? I mean, what do I do next?
[00:37:37] Ryan: Yeah. So kind of what's happening next?
[00:37:40] is, yeah, you've got this framework, the team loves it, and now, like, it's going into action. So we're putting it into our booth messaging because we're doing a ton of events in the next couple months. We're putting it into our website 'cause we just launched that whole website.
[00:37:57] So like, for example, on the website, those [00:38:00] pages that are really tough, right? Where it's like, "Hey, we need a page talking to sellers. We need a page talking to sales managers. We need a page comparing us to Gong, comparing us to Agent Force." All those things become so much easier with Claude when I can go find, like in a comparison page that I love, right?
[00:38:20] 'Cause there's so many great examples out there. Like we all follow the, the great, um, you know, product marketing, uh, emails and stuff, and sometimes they, they give you incredible comparison pages. So you go get these comparison pages, you download that, you throw that into your project, and you just say, "I want a comparison page for Hiro," and boom.
[00:38:40] And it's like, cool, I have a first draft. Like, because it knows who I am and it knows what I want to get to, right? It's got the A and the Z, which is so cool. So that's a really great example of like how to use this kind of thing, um, is in all these pages. And then, but also we're going out and we're doing billboards and we're doing stuff like that.
[00:39:00] And so that's where the research thing comes back in, because I can come up with a billboard idea, and I think something that we're probably gonna talk about in a little bit is one of the pieces where humans are still very important in what we're doing. Uh, and that's a big one. When it comes to creative ideas, I had to come up with the billboards completely myself.
[00:39:18] Like AI is not going to come up with s- five perfect words to put on a billboard. Like that's the human touch. They're just, they're, they don't get puns and pop culture and the visceral reactions that humans have. They don't get those things, but they can, you know, they can help you write a blog on whether you should build an AI sales teammate or buy one, right?
[00:39:46] And, and they can sort of help you with like long form content, and you still need to apply a flavor to that. Uh, but that's what's interesting, I think. That's kind of that, that back and forth difference.
[00:39:57] Elle: I totally agree. Yes, like [00:40:00] having the human touch on copy editing, and especially on short form copy. To your point, AI is really good at like hacking systems, and I don't mean that in a creepy way. I mean that in like, uh, knowing how to put together a blog to optimize for SEO, AEO, et cetera. That is something that I think AI would be really good in assisting you with.
[00:40:26] But knowing the exact words to put on a billboard that you're not gonna have tracking metrics on that. Like there's not... I mean, maybe you'd put up like a, uh, if you did something really crazy, you know, maybe there'd be a way to like, you know, with a QR code or something. Not saying you'd ever do that, but generally speaking, very hard to track the, um, you know, outputs of, of billboards.
[00:40:52] So I think things that are measurable, trackable with a digital footprint, those are things that AI is gonna be like probably better able to assist you with, because at the end of the day, it's all like prediction models, right? So that's, that's why I would lean heavier into for like more like the long form content.
[00:41:11] So it makes perfect sense. I have a quick question that I, I should have asked you earlier. When you went into that meeting with, um, the stakeholders, did you... What you were presenting to them, was it like the framework that you built with Claude with specifically like the narrative that you were driving?
[00:41:30] Like what ex- or, or was it just in general, was it not really Claude and the AI tools, it was kind of like just the narrative and more about the story?
[00:41:37] Ryan: this was a pretty short deck. This was like nine slides. my first slide was really reminding the team that we had already aligned on a strategic narrative, which is huge, right? Come into the room and show like, "Look, we all know where we're going." What a huge step that is. What a lucky step that I have to start with in a company.
[00:41:57] I have that, that's number one. Number [00:42:00] two, I have an awesome CMO who has a huge product marketing background of his own, so kind of knows what good looks like with this. Uh, and then we have a team who's like willing to invest a product marketer's like first month in doing this work. So those are huge. So it's just reminding them that like we're starting from the same spot.
[00:42:18] The next thing is kind of talking about some of the urgency. So what's funny about a deck like this is it's kind of like its own strategic narrative deck, where I'm kind of talking about the threats in the world, right? And one of those threats is like how LLMs are gonna define us and how we have to show up super consistently, to make sure that we're showing up in the right way when people t- uh, ask about us in LLM.
[00:42:38] So that was something we didn't really talk about in this episode, but that's a huge one. And then getting into how
[00:42:43] Elle: Ooh, I really love that one
[00:42:45] Ryan: Yeah. Is-- A positioning framework is how we are going to solve that problem. Um, that's my third slide. My next slide is a one-pager on what the framework is, where it's the market condition, who it's for, the situation we're solving, what our positioning is, what makes us different.
[00:43:04] Like, that's it. Just one page. Everyone stares at it, everyone feels good about it. and then my next slide was kind of a comparison thing of what that looks like in practice. And so it was a comparison slide, a table. I think tables are always great on a, on a deck. Um, but like a before and after kind of table where it's like, what's the market doing now, right?
[00:43:27] Most tools are recording your call. Gong records your call. Great. What are we doing? We're in the call with you, right? So it's like this sort of comparison thing about like what we're going after, the, um, what's the status quo that we're really having to, uh, face when it comes to like how we talk about ourselves versus things like, like Gong.
[00:43:47] Um, so the next one is kind of laying out how the different teams are gonna use this framework, right? Like the executive staff invested in this, so how's it gonna assimilate out to the team? And I sort of lay out how sales is [00:44:00] gonna use it, how the marketing team is using it, how the product team is gonna be using it to kind of develop roadmap and features and all those things.
[00:44:08] And so that was kind of that thing I laid out earlier about, you know, the shared test of does it help a seller prepare, respond, or follow through when the moment is on, right? That's kind of like one of our big litmus tests. Um, the next slide in this executive buy-in framework was, you know, how we keep the gap closed between what the LLMs think we are and what we actually are.
[00:44:32] And so it was kind of laying out how we're gonna do that, right? Where we're gonna use this system, what the content is that we're gonna build, how we're gonna reinforce these things every quarter. It's kind of like a contract to the executive staff to show them that this is not just like a, a, a dog and pony show, right?
[00:44:50] This is not just
[00:44:51] Elle: I love that
[00:44:52] Ryan: work. Yeah. And it's like, I'm gonna really show you how this sustains through the rest of the year. I'm always trying to be very mindful of the company's investment in me, right? I think that's huge. Um, because that's really what it is. Like I'm a-- This is kind of a weird analogy for you, but like I'm a musician when I'm not working, and I'm buying equipment and I'm trying equipment, and I'm looking at those things as like, does this make me sound better?
[00:45:18] Does this make me perform better? And if it doesn't, I gotta get rid of it, right? And so I think of a company and I think of an eStaff as looking at every employee like that. Like, I'm gonna invest in this resource and I want it to make this company grow, not just for them to just do work I'm paying for.
[00:45:34] And so, so it's important for me always to make sure that like this investment is being looked at as, as a sustained one. Um, and then the next slide
[00:45:43] Elle: I really love the way that, I really love the way that you articulated that with like the investment in the employee versus like feeling really transactional, like I'm paying you for work to be done. I love that. I think that's really, um, a smart way for PMMs to [00:46:00] be thinking about how to talk about their work with their
[00:46:03] employers
[00:46:04] Ryan: it's not-- 'Cause that's what's funny about business is, is like, you know, back to my funny analogy, it's like if I go buy a guitar pick that I don't like, I'm gonna get rid of it, uh, and it's not personal. It's like, well, it's just not working for the job that I'm trying to do. And so I think every employee at a company has to look at it that way, is like, I'm, I'm pushing the business forward.
[00:46:24] I'm pushing the stakeholder holder value forward. And so the first slide is about how we keep the gap closed. And then the next one, 'cause a, a, a leader's always gonna ask this question, is like, "Okay, well, how do we know this is working?" That's kind of my last slide. Like, okay, these are the things we're gonna do, and now how are we gonna measure you, right?
[00:46:42] So, so that deck was huge and it, and it went great, and so we've been using this framework ever since
[00:46:48] Elle: I love that. Okay, so back to our playbook. I, let's just say I, I borrow your outline for my slide deck. I, my call with my, or my meeting with my executives and my stakeholders goes really well. Now it's just execution time, right? Like, we're using that Claude project, we're generating those web pages, we're building out whatever resources we need, all within the guidelines and the, um, you know, with those foundational documents of the Claude project.
[00:47:18] But then also still using human touch for the, you know, parts of copywriting where you just need to. Is that the end of this playbook? Is there anything else you'd add? And then if not, I guess, like, take us home with, like, one piece of advice that you want PMMs to walk away with from doing an, um, a big project like this
[00:47:38] Ryan: Yeah. So it helps me-- I think one of the big things that this helps me with is context switching. I've, I've kind of realized. So in this big launch, right, I've got to update Crunchbase and Salesforce AppExchange and G2 and all these different websites that talk about Hiro. And having this [00:48:00] project allows me to go in and say, "Hey, I need the 120-character version of Hiro.
[00:48:05] I need the 300-character version of Hiro." Like, and I get like that first draft immediately, right? So like I'm not getting like death by a thousand cuts doing all these like small projects. Um, but another one, I wanted to talk about another one too that I, I thought was real-- Okay, so here's another one. We-- With this launch, we wanted to come out with videos, right?
[00:48:27] Uh, I thought this was a really great, uh, idea from my boss, where we were gonna have a one-minute explainer video, a three-minute explainer, and a five-minute explainer video, right? And so it's fun to think about the script of those three videos because something I learned from a past boss is like your video has to start from just a plain page script, like with all the moments.
[00:48:50] It's got to just be a, a boring script on a page and then you go find the talent, you find the screens, the music, all the different things, but you all got to start from there. And so that was a really fun project to start from the framework, excuse me, and then be like, "Okay, what's th- what do these three look like?
[00:49:11] Like what changes from one to three to five minutes," right? Like what do we bring in more? What do we explain more? Um, and all of it is just operating from that DNA. It's like I'm working with an assistant and we're on like the exact same page, and so we could kind of like refine. And so I get an output, I give the feedback, and then I get a new version and it's great and it, it allows us to work so quickly.
[00:49:37] I mean we did these three videos in a week because we had incredible people on the videos. We had a really great sales engineer and a really great sales leader who like did the demos for me. We had a really great video person. But what was awesome was if you think about a project length, all that front stuff was like done in like a day.[00:50:00]
[00:50:00] So it was like, "Okay, I'm doing my part today. I'm getting it to other people fast." Everything is speeding up because the product marketing piece is like done a lot quicker while I'm doing other things at the exact same time. So that's what's cool is
[00:50:15] Elle: So
[00:50:16] Ryan: that.
[00:50:16] Elle: big advocate for doing all that foundational work, building out the Claude project, and then think more creatively about how you can continue to amplify your work and your value with all that goodness that you had put in at the front end with the deep research and the, the 40-page manifesto and the, um, including the persona documents. All such good stuff. Okay. All right. Okay. Love this case study. It's truly one of my favorites most recently because it's just so fascinating and so impressive. Thank you so much, Ryan. I loved it. Um, appreciate you going into so much detail on it. Um, now it's time for the next segment of our show. This is the messaging critique.
[00:51:01] This is where, as product marketing experts, we get to analyze real-world messaging. And the fun part is, Ryan, you
[00:51:08] get to pick the company that we critique the messaging for, or it doesn't have to be the company messaging, could also be campaign messaging. Um, okay, so quick round rules. Try to pick a company that you feel pretty comfortable talking about and that you know the market pretty well.
[00:51:23] Um, some- then tell us what the messaging is, just quick overview of what the company does, and then tell us what you're loving about it, what's standing out really well, and then something you wish the PMM would've considered differently, and then we'll brainstorm, iterate on how that PMM can take it to the next level
[00:51:40] Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's funny, I brought up a page on my screen here. This is a site that I love that I haven't actually looked at in a while. So it's a site that I've loved in the past. It's a site that I haven't seen in a little bit, and so it feels like a great chance to like see like what are they [00:52:00] saying now, right?
[00:52:01] Elle: Let's do it. Reveal the company. Who are we looking at?
[00:52:04] Ryan: Okay, cool. So I love what UserGems does. I love their site. I love who they work with. I
[00:52:10] Elle: User gems
[00:52:12] Ryan: Have you s- have you used it recently on the pod?
[00:52:14] Elle: I have not, I have not. So one of my other podcast guests at the, at the very beginning of the year, Julian Sauvage, he, we critiqued UserGems, but that was months ago. So I'm also curious to see how it has changed. Let's, this'll be fun. Okay
[00:52:30] so UserGems, guys, if you wanna follow a- along, it's U-S-E-R-G-E-M-S.com, UserGems
[00:52:38] Ryan: Yeah. So do you want me to share my screen or what, what should we do?
[00:52:43] Elle: yeah, sure. Go for it. Let's do it,
[00:52:45] Ryan: so let's check it out, right? When I get into this page, boy, there's a lot that I look at on this page.
[00:52:51] So the AI command center for outbound and ABM. Okay. I, I don't love it, so what I'm gonna do next is I'm gonna go to the next slide, which is fine. Uh, one place for all your signals, data, and prioritization. Deploy AI agents to run personalized outbound and ABM at scale. Money back guarantee. Okay, that's great 'cause they're kind of like clarifying for me a little bit, right?
[00:53:16] 'Cause AI command center is tough. Like it's, uh, it, it, it's like kind, it's kind of a, it's a little bit of the all-in-one thing that we try to get away from, right? That
[00:53:27] Elle: It's too fluffy. Yes. Yeah, it still leaves me a little bit like, I, I understand the pressure that B2B companies are under with articulating their innovations with AI. I-
[00:53:43] totally get that. Um, and so it's tough. But throwing it in, and, and I'm sure this, I'm probably being a little bit more flippant than it, than was intended, but it feels a little too fluffy for me and it, it, it causes me to [00:54:00] immediately think like, "Uh, are you trying to be bigger than you actually are?"
[00:54:05] It, it, it, it's moving away from differentiator, I guess, is what I'm saying. And to your point, like being too, too much to too many folks. Okay, so I don't want to get into, get into it, but, um, what's your critique? What's working really Well, with some of this?
[00:54:20] Ryan: Well, here's what's funny, like the more I-- 'cause I just pulled this up and just got it fla- kind of like you just did. We just got it kind of flashed at us, like this wasn't something that we prepared for, you and I. So
[00:54:30] the more I'm it, the more things are starting to sort of s- poke out to me a little bit.
[00:54:34] So it says here, "Trusted by the best revenue teams." And so now I have a question of who is using this product? Like who on the team, revenue team, like okay, so who on the team? And I come back up to here and I say, okay, the AI command center for outbound and ABM. So that must be like your SDRs, I think are using this.
[00:54:58] So one place for your signals, data, and prioritization, deploy agents to run personalized outbound and ABM at scale. My question is, are my SDRs using it? Are my salespeople using it? Are you replacing those people, and is a leader using it? That's where I'm a little confused about who is using this in what world or size of company, right?
[00:55:22] Do you-- Is that how you feel too?
[00:55:24] Elle: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I know exactly where you're going with this. And the other thing is that, when they say the best revenue teams, um, and then they have it looks like a list of logos down there, they're being a bit-- they're trying to be complimentary to their customers because they're the, the best teams.
[00:55:42] But if I'm not a customer, does that mean I'm not the best? Like, it's not a big deal. It's very picky. Okay, keep going with where you're-- with what you're thinking on some of this.
[00:55:52] Ryan: Yeah. So it, it's a little, um, it's a little bit-- What it feels like to me is it reminds me of another homepage that we can pull up [00:56:00] real quick. And the vibe I get is like, "We don't have to be that clear because we already got customers, and we already have it going on. So we can just sort of say, like, whatever we want."
[00:56:14] And I think, uh... Okay, obviously that's not Gong's website. Uh, oh. All right. This is what live is all about, right? We're gonna find out
[00:56:23] what
[00:56:23] Elle: I know,
[00:56:24] Ryan: URL actually is. All right. Gong.io. Okay. Don't know what gong.com was. Luckily it wasn't anything too weird. Um, so
[00:56:34] Elle: Gong.io. I, I forgot
[00:56:36] Ryan: but let's look at this one. These guys are so amazing at, like, needing to say a whole
[00:56:41] lot. the number one. All right. So you call yourself number one. who's like-- It's almost like when the car companies give themselves awards, right? It's like, it's a little funny. For the operating system
[00:56:53] Elle: to who? Yes
[00:56:55] Ryan: It, it's funny that they say this because operating system for revenue teams, like to me that would be your CRM, right?
[00:57:04] Like that's where your, your point of truth is, and we all know who the big CRMs are. Um, so that's what's kind of funny about that headline. And then, um, this, this is just sort of a funny thing. I don't know what it really means. And then
[00:57:18] built help your
[00:57:19] Elle: the little a- yeah
[00:57:20] Ryan: team... Yeah, sorry. So, so, uh, let me, let me, uh, throw, throw the mic back.
[00:57:23] You, you, you jump in please
[00:57:25] Elle: Yeah
[00:57:25] Well, so what I'm, what I'm thinking when we go to, like, UserGems and they-- and it's kind of getting back to that really top-level messaging of, like, the AI command center, and then we go to Gone, we're like, "The number one AI operating system." To me, I'm like, what's the difference? What's the d- like, I'm sure there is a difference, but what I'm getting at is that, like, I think these B2B companies are under a lot of pressure to bring in this, like, AI speak into some of this, like, really top-level, um, narrative, and It it ends up getting very like, uh, like [00:58:00] a, like too fluffy, I guess, is what I'm saying, and it confuses me.
[00:58:05] And that could be okay if it's, if you provide with some, like, intrigue, and it's like, okay, well maybe I wanna look a little deeper. So, um, and, and this could also be that I'm not the target persona for some of these, but I, I, I guess, like, my, initial gut reaction is like, "Tell me more," because I don't...
[00:58:30] It's not quite saying enough for me to feel-- It's, it's feeling more of like a, like rolling my eyes, like, okay, more, more AI stuff being, you know, shoved in there. So but that's kind of my first take on, like, something that I wish the PMM would've considered differently is, like, let's lean heavier into differentiators than, than trying to run with a me too, I have AI.
[00:58:54] Look, look, look, I have AI. Like, y- you know? So that's my first reaction, but I've only been looking at it for, like, two minutes. So what
[00:59:04] about you guys? You're kind of, like, looking at the difference between these. What, what's your take on it?
[00:59:08] Ryan: Yeah, it's funny, like I love looking at the flow of a site and then we kind of talk about some of the stuff on the top. So like you get in here and what Gong is clearly trying to do is say, "Look, we are no longer just what we used to be. We are, we are AI. We are AI." Like, and then what they're doing here is they're saying, "Let's show you some AI," Right We're gonna have this auto-playing thing right here. What Gong used to have was this customer tracker, like right up on the top, because it's kind of like the, um, the delivery to the promise. They're gonna say they're the number one and then they kind of have to have, "We're number one because we got 5,000 customers," right?
[00:59:44] And like look at the size of these names. We have Google and Dropbox and ADP and like everybody that you would want as a customer. So it's kind of they've got this and then they just kind of stuck this sort of like quick, you know, AI thing on here, [01:00:00] which is cool, um, I guess. Uh, and then they, and then they're right into like here's how people are using it, right?
[01:00:05] Customer, uh, customer proof sort of down the line and things folks probably aren't reading a whole lot past this point. Um, and then getting back to this one, we kind of talked about this top layer and it's, it's cool they're doing the customer proof thing right here off the top. I love this idea that companies-- This is kind of a more modern design where people are putting the case studies like right up in the, right up in the top area, right?
[01:00:28] That's like the new thing is like have your logos and the case studies together. That's very cool. companies are switching from 6sense to UserGem. I like that. They are like planting a
[01:00:41] flag here. This, it's very bold. I'm really excited to click this see the comparison, uh, link right here. I think we should click it
[01:00:50] Elle: The other thing that I like about this is that, like, if you were new to UserGems, I think UserGems is a smaller company from 6sense. I might be wrong. I think it is. So it, uh, it gives some context into, like, who you should compare to us or compare, sorry, who you, who you should compare us to. and so it gives the customer that context, and then it also, like, states the alternative of like, "Hey, you're using this, like, consider using us."
[01:01:16] So I, I like where that could evolve into in terms of, you know, maybe like competitive campaigns or something
[01:01:24] Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, that's a very-- I like that insight. And it's funny, on this page you get here, and I actually have a problem with this Book Demo button. I think when you think of, like, a person's flow in this moment like you just said, they're like, "Oh, I know 6sense. What's UserGems do? I'm gonna click this link.
[01:01:38] This sounds spicy." I think right here is a wasted opportunity. They should have something like, um, "Get a video walkthrough of the difference," or, like, give me, more for, like, I'm not gonna book a demo right now. Like, I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if this ever gets clicked in, on this page in this moment, [01:02:00] right?
[01:02:00] Like, not happening.
[01:02:02] Elle: Yeah
[01:02:03] What I-- This is a really good piece of insight, and I would love to see UserGems take this to the next level, where instead of they're doing, like, feature comparisons, they're like, bring customers more into this. Like, go do some us-re- UserGems, you probably already have some of this research, but, like, what are your customers who are switching, what are they saying?
[01:02:23] You don't necessarily have to name them here. Get their stories and see what you can do with that in terms of content rather than doing, like, a direct feature comparison, 'cause I think that's a classic PMM trap is getting when you do competitive intelligence is the feature comparison. And like, yes, that there are times when, like, that does matter.
[01:02:45] There are table stake features that, you know, your customers require. Like, yes, of course. But it's more than, more often than not, there's more to the story than just the feature comparison
[01:02:57] Ryan: Yeah, it's tough, right? You're, you're reminding me of one of my favorite business books I've read lately, and that's the April Dunford "Sales Pitch" book, where a big thing, and it's something that we really put into our first call deck. I was so excited that the team kind of allowed me to get inspired by her book and then, like, they were already on the same page of, like, how we started off.
[01:03:17] What folks are really looking for you to do on a page like this is show that they can trust you, show that you can be like a market advisor, right? Like April's analogy is like, I went in to buy a toilet for my remodeled bathroom, and I need that salesperson to bring me along on the journey of like what this market is and why I need what I need.
[01:03:41] If you kind of give someone a, a table where it's a bunch of greens and reds, you're not really getting that trust, right? From, from what's happening here. You're, not showing that like everybody's got their place in the market and maybe what I need is, is this, and, and 6sense is good at [01:04:00] this. So I think something I'd love to see in this table is like where 6sense shines, and they are doing it a little bit here in this advertising section.
[01:04:08] Um, but I think that's something kind of funny and, and, uh, I don't know. That, that that's what I think makes a great comparison page is like you are a m- a trusted market advisor
[01:04:19] Elle: I love that perspective. I love it. Okay, so is this how you'd like to see UserGems kind of take their storytelling and narrative to the next level? Is there anything else to the story here
[01:04:31] Ryan: Gosh, let's, uh, let's go back to the front here. I still, I still really, uh, love what they're doing and, uh, we kind of get in here into agent, AI agents, into these solutions pages. It's funny, I haven't looked at this page in a long time. Um, but customers, you know, you just go right to that page. Hall of Gems, I'm not really sure what that is.
[01:04:50] And then they've got resources. Here's what's funny, and it's something that, that I think every company should really rethink when it comes to resources, is that no one jumps to a site, goes into a resource center and says, "I feel like a classroom today," or, "I feel like a webinar today."
[01:05:09] And like, we've got to get out of like the type sort of being that front door, right? Like it's, we've got to come back to like your-- I know this is like a dramatic word, but like all anybody cares about are their problems and what your product is trying to do is like help them survive their problems, right?
[01:05:29] And so I think there's like this reimagining of a resource center where it can be, um, the, the, uh, sort of the input points to solving their problems. And they probably have that?
[01:05:41] if I click into this. Um, you know, now they're kind of into that space of like reach out to past champions when they change jobs, like revise closed opportunities.
[01:05:51] Like these might be those examples for user gems, but like what are the, what are like the headlines that someone would actually care about? What do you think about [01:06:00] that?
[01:06:00] Elle: I love that. And I'm, I'm bringing us back to what I said a few minutes ago around go talk to your customers again. You probably already had this research, so go look at it again, and how can you repackage what you already are hearing from your customers? And I love what you're saying about, um, reimagining resources for your customers, but use their voice to do it.
[01:06:26] So, like, how can you repackage their own experiences, their pains, their frustrations, their hopes, their dreams, repackaging it into content and assets that will help them continue through that journey into discovering UserGems and m- maintaining a, you know, a good, a healthy journey to becoming a customer
[01:06:48] Ryan: Yeah, absolutely
[01:06:51] Elle: I love it. Okay. Well, shout out to any UserGems PMMs out there. We, you've got some fans, and we are very intrigued in how you could evolve your narrative and storytelling. Um, okay. So Ryan, I always like to make space on this podcast for a moment of gratitude because in product marketing, we never get to where we are without learning and growing from each other.
[01:07:13] Um, and we're all better for it. So thank you so much for coming on this podcast, sharing your case study, and you s- you've been so generous with your playbook and your time. So just ge- a genuine thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and it's the, gonna benefit the whole PMM community
[01:07:31] Ryan: Yeah. Thank you. I mean, if I have gratitude for some folks, um, you know, I, I did my-- I, I left my last role and I got a new role within a couple months, and there were some people who really helped me, uh, with that shift. There was, uh, Jonathan Pipik, I think I'm saying his last name correctly.
[01:07:48] Uh, really great
[01:07:49] marketer.
[01:07:50] He gave me really good advice on, like, my portfolio. Philippe from GetWise has always been, uh, you know, in my corner, which is amazing. Uh, my old [01:08:00] boss, Joe Andrews, is a product marketer from Zuora, who was the CMO at SupportLogic, amazing product marketer. Uh, Gerard Green, my current CMO, is, uh, has, he has a big presence on LinkedIn, great product marketer.
[01:08:12] Um, and then, you know, three kind of influencers I love, Dave Gerhardt and Exit5, of course, we're all fans. April Dunford, who I've mentioned probably 10 times, Anthony Pieri. I mean, these are great voices to follow. Uh, Jason Oakley's, uh, email newsletter. I know he has a, a partner, I can't think of his name right now.
[01:08:32] Their newsletter is great. Your, your, uh, podcast is great. So it's so fun to be in a space that is always changing, and then, you know, I get to have a day job and then learn from all of you. So thank you.
[01:08:44] Elle: Yeah. Isn't it so great? I mean, our community of product marketers is just filled with givers who give their time and their talent and mentorship. It's so lovely. I love those shout-outs, and some of those folks either have been on the podcast before or they've been mentioned before in the moment of gratitude.
[01:09:04] So, um, it's just further testament that they really are awesome. Okay, and this is my last question for you.
[01:09:12] Ryan. Where else can we access your expertise if, uh, if listeners wanna reach out?
[01:09:16] Ryan: Yeah, just LinkedIn. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn. Um, I think I've been on LinkedIn so long, I think my URL on LinkedIn is just /radcliffe. Um, so I think it's been like 20 years I've been on LinkedIn. Uh, so yeah, that's,
[01:09:30] Elle: Too long.
[01:09:31] Ryan: I, I have a portfolio but it's out. I made a, I made a Notion and, uh, it was really fun building all that, but since I started here, I haven't touched it, so it's
[01:09:41] Elle: It changes so quickly. Yes, it changes really quickly. So awesome. Well, again, thank you so much, Ryan. And hey, PMM listeners, if you like this episode, please share it with a PMM friend. I'd be so grateful if you would leave us a review. It helps so much with our reach. And thank you so much for coming on this journey with us today.
[01:09:59] I [01:10:00] hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
[01:10:05]
