Write Your Product Narrative Like a Zapier PMM
You know that moment when a company outgrows the thing it is known for, but the market has not quite caught up yet? You still think of them for that one product, even though the reality is bigger now. Amazon is more than an online retailer. Apple is more than iPhones. It’s natural for brands to expand their product offerings, and chances are, as a PMM, you are going to be part of that initiative. The tricky part is that sometimes launching something new can feel more like an add-on, not like the next chapter.
That is what today’s conversation is about. How to evolve your brand narrative so it reflects what the company has become, not just what it started as. I am joined by Wade Burrell, a product marketing leader with 15 years at the intersection of product, go-to-market, and growth. Wade has worked across companies like Worldpay, Square, and Intuit Mailchimp, where he led SMS expansion across 37 countries and helped shift Mailchimp from being known as an email platform to being understood as a multi-channel marketing platform. Today, he is at Zapier, leading product marketing for critical infrastructure in the AI era.
A big part of our discussion centers on Wade’s work at Mailchimp and what it takes to change product perception when something new is initially treated like a bolt-on. Mailchimp’s SMS product launched as a standalone MVP in early 2023, and the early perception was predictable. Useful, but optional. Wade and his team worked to reposition it as a company-wide priority, not just a feature. The goal was not to make SMS sound bigger. It was to make the strategy behind it clearer, and to connect it to the platform story in a way that made sense to customers and internal teams.
The Playbook: Shaping Your Product Narrative
Wade laid out a practical approach PMMs can use when they need to move a product from “nice add-on” to “strategic pillar.”
First, audit what you already have. Before you rush to market with something new, take inventory of your platform assets. What do you already own in terms of infrastructure, customer relationships, data, distribution, and trust. The strongest narrative shifts usually come from connecting the new thing to the value you already deliver, not pretending you are starting from scratch.
Second, do open hypothesis research. Go into customer conversations without trying to force a story. Ask how they work today, what is broken, what they are trying to achieve, and where the friction actually lives. When you let customers describe their world in their words, you find the gaps that matter. Those gaps become the raw material for positioning.
Third, bring those insights into roadmap conversations. Not as supporting evidence for a decision that is already made, but as inputs that shape what gets built and why. Wade’s point here was that narrative work is not just external. It has to show up in internal prioritization too, otherwise the story and the product drift apart.
Fourth, reframe limitations as advantages. Instead of hiding what the product does not do, use constraints to sharpen differentiation. You do not need to beat category leaders at their strongest points. You need to be clear about what you do uniquely well and why that matters for the customer’s workflow.
Fifth, collaborate with sales early. Sales is where positioning gets pressure tested. If the story does not hold up in real conversations, you will find out fast. Wade emphasized using sales as a reality check, not as a final distribution channel. Bring them in early, listen to what lands, and use that feedback to tighten the narrative.
Messaging Critique: Cursor
In the messaging critique segment, Wade and I looked at Cursor, an AI-native code editor that calls itself the “best way to code with AI.” We liked the clarity and confidence. In a crowded market, a declarative statement can do a lot of work.
At the same time, we talked about where the narrative could expand. Cursor is clearly speaking to developers, but there is an opportunity to build a second layer for decision-makers in larger organizations. Engineering leaders and enterprise buyers care about different outcomes, and a separate messaging track could help Cursor translate product strength into organizational value.
Wade’s core message was simple. Narrative shifts do not happen because you write better copy. They happen because you understand the customer deeply, you bring that truth into product decisions, and you align teams around a story that matches reality. The best PMMs do not just launch features, but help the market understand what the company is becoming.
If you are in the middle of a platform expansion, or you can feel your positioning falling behind your roadmap, this is a good reminder that your story is part of the product. When you get it right, launches stop feeling like add-ons and start feeling like momentum.
LINKS
Messaging Critique (Cursor): https://cursor.com/
Connect with Wade:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wadeburrel
Connect with Elle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/
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[00:00:42] Elle: You know that moment when a company outgrows the thing that it's known for, but the market hasn't quite caught up yet? Like when you still think of them for that one product, and there are a ton of examples of this. Amazon is more than an online retailer. Apple offers more than iPhones. Well, first they started with laptops or computers.
[00:01:00] So what I'm saying is it's very natural for brands to expand product offerings, and chances are, as a PMM, you're going to be part of that initiative. But sometimes launching something new can feel more like an add-on, not like the next chapter. Today's episode is about how to make your brand known for more than the flagship product you started with, and we're unpacking it through a case study that did exactly that.
[00:01:28] I'm so excited to welcome Wade Burrell to the show. Wade has spent the last 15 years at the intersection of product, go-to-market, and growth With stops at Worldpay, Square, and Intuit Mailchimp, where he led SMS expansion across 37 countries.
[00:01:46] But what makes his story so interesting is this: He helped take a company known for one thing and start to redefine what it could become, turning SMS from a standalone feature [00:02:00] into a company-wide strategic priority. And now today, he's at Zapier leading product marketing for some of the most important infrastructure in the AI era.
[00:02:10] Wade, welcome to the show.
[00:02:12] Wade: Hey, El. I'm so excited to be here and, and thanks so much for having me, truly.
[00:02:17] Elle: Yes, I know we've been looking forward to this chat for a while, at least I have. Uh,
[00:02:23] Wade: No question about it.
[00:02:24] Elle: so let's dive right in. So you're currently at Zapier today, and we'll come back to that in a bit. But today's case study is really about your time from Mailchimp. So give us a quick summary of what Mailchimp offers. I feel like I remember the first time I used it a very, very, very long time ago at the start of my marketing career, but it's so much more than that now.
[00:02:49] So help get me and the listeners up to speed.
[00:02:52] Wade: Absolutely. And I think that's, uh, that's the biggest thing and then I think a big, uh, opportunity for us to dig in here as we're talking through this because I think most people know Mailchimp for email, right? It's where a lot of marketers got their start, right? And that reputation was, uh, well-earned. I, uh, when I started in, I g- uh, actually I should say by the time I started in 2017, it was already the largest email marketing platform in the world.
[00:03:19] 12 million-plus businesses were customers already. and then over the next eight-plus years, so my time there, there was this broader vision that, uh, that came to light really becoming this all-in-one marketing platform. Intuit acquired Mailchimp in 2021, and that only accelerated that push, and I think the, the market still had this fixed idea on what Mailchimp was.
[00:03:41] It was an email company, and that gap between what the company was building towards and how the market still saw it, that was the tension that we were always, always working against. So now, however, um, and we'll get into this, but Mailchimp offers SMS and messaging services and features and functionality, and it's this product, that [00:04:00] specific product feature set that helped bridge the gap between M- what Mailchimp was and what Mailchimp wanted to become.
[00:04:06] Elle: Got it. Okay. That's a really helpful history of, Mailchimp, and it's a nice segue into where we're going with this conversation for the case study. So, uh, the first segment of the show is the case study segment, and we're talking all about how you helped the company make that big change in its, in its narrative.
[00:04:24] So tell me more about what was going on at Mailchimp when all of this got started.
[00:04:31] Wade: Well, at the time, you know, Mailchimp, and I mentioned this just, uh, a second ago, but Mailchimp dominated email. Like they were, they had 12 million-plus businesses. They were the name in email marketing. And I, I think what we saw was, while email marketing is not in any way, shape, or form dead or anything like that, they understood that the market and individuals and companies and businesses and their customers explicitly were engaging or needed additional ways to engage with those businesses, or those businesses need additional ways to engage with those customers, right?
[00:05:08] And so this is when SMS came into light. It launched in early 2023, as a next growth channel for Mailchimp. but what we did was, uh, we launched it as a standalone MVP. It truly was this, this kind of like, you could say it's an add-on, I would say wasn't even baked into the product to the way it should have been.
[00:05:29] But it's, allowed us to really kinda learn into things, and that positioning when we first got started.
[00:05:35] was it's the number one email marketing platform, which was a, a verified claim that we were able to get, and then now with SMS, right? So it got the idea across that we are expanding from a brand perspective into more features and functionality and more channels.
[00:05:51] But it, it really, if you look at that and read that tagline back or that positioning statement, the number one email marketing platform now with SMS, it's [00:06:00] simply a tack on, right? You're just tacking it on to the, uh, to what's, what everyone knows you ab- uh, for now. So was an interesting time to say the least.
[00:06:08] Elle: Yeah. And that sounds like a very reasonable change, right? And I could totally see, the rationale behind, "Hey, we're noticing something different in what our customers are doing and what our customers need, so let's try to offer that as soon as possible, and then we can figure out the story later."
[00:06:25] Wade: Exactly.
[00:06:27] Elle: think it's a super common, you know, situation that marketers, particularly product marketers, are stuck in.
[00:06:34] So I guess, what was the real challenge then that you were facing when you decided that like, "Okay, this is sounding like an add-on. let's try to make it not an add-on"?
[00:06:45] Wade: Uh, it's such a good point and it's such a good like, it was a really defining moment from, from a product marketing perspective, but also from like our product team's perspective and also the company itself, I'll say. Not to like boast myself up too much, but it was truly a defining moment of we had this product SMS, right?
[00:07:04] But we, we, we needed to position it in a way that could actually compete against any other type of, of tool, whether it be, you know, Twilio or Attentive or any other kind of SMS native tools. We know, we knew we couldn't outright win against those based on just like straight up features because we were, you know, a couple years behind, uh, just to be completely honest with you.
[00:07:29] but the idea came to mind of how do we actually win, right? What do we, what do, what can we do? What can we actually, uh, hang our hat on from a product perspective, but also a brand perspective that we could, in the market, differentiate ourselves a little bit, right? So we had to, there was a lot of back and forth with our product teams, with our internal leadership, with our engineering teams on like what do we need to do and, and what do we need to figure out in order to actually like resolve this debate around [00:08:00] what's happening and what, where the product should go explicitly.
[00:08:03] So it was very, very kind of like a defining time of it's like you could go any way, right? You could go this way or you could go this way. We had to really kind of nail down what we needed to do for sure.
[00:08:13] Elle: Yeah. It's so smart. Um, I-- you said this, but I'm gonna just repeat it back. Focusing on, okay, well, what is our true differentiator here so that we can position ourselves well in this market where there already are, you know, maybe category leaders specifically for, you know, SMS, but here you are with, You're a leader in a different channel, but now you're, um, you're offering more capabilities for your customers.
[00:08:40] Wade: Yeah.
[00:08:41] one thing there is like we really had to think about what gave us the right to, to even offer SMS. Like what, what was it like, okay, you're, you know, for email, sure, this is another way to engage with customers or prospects, but you what was Mailchimp's like right to win or why were you even engaging in this channel, right?
[00:09:03] Why were you dipping your toes into something else? It was such an interesting, such an interesting problem to solve for sure.
[00:09:10] Elle: Yeah, the like the why are we here? Why did we do
[00:09:12] this? I love that, and I think a lot of PMMs frankly miss that. They just take the, "Okay, here's the product. What can it do? What are the benefits?" Done, out the door. And that's-- you leave so much opportunity on the table when you don't take the time to investigate the why.
[00:09:30] So leaning into that a bit, like talk more about like what did you do and how did you start to uncover that?
[00:09:35] Wade: For sure. So I, I saw this, this internal debate going on. Obviously, product marketing is involved in that 'cause we at Mailchimp, the product marketing team and the product teams are very, very close, and the product management teams, I should say explicitly, are very close in terms of like understanding the customers explicitly.
[00:09:55] But I think what's expected of product marketing is, is to really [00:10:00] bring that, customer insight, that market insight to table. So what I did was I, I went into customer research with basically a hypothesis, right? No, not even like, uh, because we didn't know where we wanted to go, like I had to go in with just kind of leaving it open to see what, where our customers would lead us, right?
[00:10:19] Where they're taking us, what they need explicitly. So I, uh, when I interviewed customers, from our beta, I, I basically asked about workflows. I asked about what they needed when it comes to engaging with their customers or what they needed from a SMS tool. Not explicitly like product features, but like what was the thing that would actually, kinda move the needle for them as a business.
[00:10:42] And, and the one thing I heard that was, uh, honestly still sticks with me these days, uh, is, is this key quote. It was, "I don't need more tools. I need tools to talk to each other." So it was this idea that having multiple tools like an email platform or an SMS platform or a social platform, whatever it was, are all great and you need that and you have to have it.
[00:11:05] But if they're not speaking to each other, it's actually triple, double, triple the work of, of an individual, right? So we found in, or I found in my, in my research that about 86% of our customer base were already using SMS in some other platform, in some other way, whether it be, you know, transactional SMS or marketing SMS or anything like that.
[00:11:29] It was very, very fragmented based on, on their needs. And I think this allowed me to reframe the Mailchimp differentiation away from like strictly features and this is what we have and you can do this in Mailchimp, but it was, more towards the platform, right? So we were able to say, you know, you, not only can you do email and SMS in Mailchimp, but it's connected to your automations, connected to your, your contact profiles.
[00:11:58] It's connected to all your [00:12:00] existing data that you've had before, right? So I was able to understand and listen to our customers and bring that voice of the customer directly into those roadmap conversations. And what it did was allow us to actually shift the priorities of our product roadmap away from that, uh, standalone integration or standalone add-on of SMS, but actually integrate SMS into the platform, right?
[00:12:24] So unified data, unified, automations, which is Mailchimp was huge on and s- and, and customer journeys. And then even the thing that I think is the kicker and that we heard so much about in those interviews was the unified reporting. So being able to see based on your spend, especially from email and SMS perspective, what is actually working and what's not working.
[00:12:46] And if you had two disparate systems, you're gonna have to do the same work twice and not really see how they overlap with each other. So that was the big, big thing that I was able to bring to the table and actually push the product and the, the company kind of narrative towards. It was a, it was a very interesting time for sure.
[00:13:02] Elle: I love that. And I, I have to just pause for a second and go back to something, just kinda the, the process that you just outlaid and the action that you and, you know, the team that you're working with took. And you mentioned that you, you did customer research, and you were interviewing customers, and I think it's really important to note that what you ask customers, the, the, uh, literal questions you ask are so important, and this is where you can't just copy and paste from an AI tool.
[00:13:34] You need to be so thoughtful about what you ask and why you're asking it, because that's how you got that meaningful quote that completely changed the, the trajectory of this entire initiative. So I think that's just, that's so important
[00:13:50] Wade: It's, it's truly a... Knowing what to ask or knowing how to frame questions when you're talking to [00:14:00] customers is, is a big thing. I don't, I don't necessarily like, like leading customers in the way that I think that they should go, you know? And you can do that by asking questions that you think that they would like or, or that you think the answer will be good for what you want.
[00:14:14] It's really about kind of opening up the floor. And I think what I found is when you ask people to talk about themselves, their business, whatever it is, they like to speak and they will just give you exactly what you need and exactly what, what works for them. And that is such a, such a huge impactful and, and insightful data points that.
[00:14:35] you as a PMM can bring to the table because no one else is really asking those questions.
[00:14:39] You know, UX research, sure, but like it's really how someone is, is using the product for their business or how the business would be better with the product that you're working with. It's such an interesting thing and super, super important to really nail down those questions, but also leave it open to let them talk to you explicitly.
[00:14:59] Elle: Yeah. So smart. Okay, so take us to the end. You had this really strong narrative that you, you know, developed after doing all this wonderful research. how did the results turn out for the company?
[00:15:13] Wade: was truly amazing, I think, for, for a variety of reasons. One, in the first year or, or 18 months, I would say, we launched SMS in 12 countries. Um, and those are like 12 major, countries: US, Australia, UK, Canada, all these major countries worldwide. and then by the time I left, we had launched in 37 countries, which I'm, I mentioned, which is honestly in about two and a half to three years' time, was an amazing.
[00:15:41] feat 'cause there are a lot of specific things that require, uh, regulation and compliance issues within each country.
[00:15:48] So doing it in 37 countries was an amazing feat. That led to about 300% growth in revenue in year two, and then in year three, which was my last year [00:16:00] at Mailchimp, we were looking at 200%, uh, growth in revenue year over year, which is exciting. And at that point, it had become the fastest growing product at Mailchimp, right?
[00:16:10] I think, uh, y- by the time that I started in 2017, Mailchimp had been around for 17 years. So, coming in and being able to, to launch a product such as SMS and messaging explicitly at Mailchimp and to see it grow was, was super gratifying, but also just, uh, indicative of what the market needed. So that progression and that actual growth of the product changed Mailchimp's trajectory as a company, and the idea of multi-channel, so email and SMS, became a company-wide priority.
[00:16:45] They, they saw the value, they being leadership, they being the company, saw the value in incorporating SMS in the, in the way that that email was with Mailchimp, right? So if you think about, uh, Mailchimp, you should be able to think about SMS and email in the same light, and they should be able to do the same things, right?
[00:17:03] So not only that from a product standpoint did it influence that, it actually influenced the broader company narrative and strategy as a whole on how we should go to market going forward, how should, we should evolve the company narrative and the brand narrative, both, uh, you know, from a product perspective, but also outside with our customers and prospects.
[00:17:21] So anytime we showed up in front of customers now, it was email and SMS. It was not just email. So very, I'd say lucky and successful for sure, but it was a, it was a fun ride to say the least.
[00:17:34] Elle: Yeah. What a fantastic story. I have so many things that I wanna that I wanna focus on, but the biggest thing is, I don't even know if this is the biggest thing, but one of the things that stuck out to me was you turned something that was initially an add-on. I mean, we s- you said it at the beginning, like, the first or the, the number one email tool, now with [00:18:00] SMS, like, literally an add-on.
[00:18:01] But, and it took time, this took time, but you were able to completely change how the company saw itself and influence the entire company narrative, and you have the results to prove that this was the right move for the company, even though you were not the first mover in the SMS space. You didn't come in, well, maybe initially you came in looking like, "Hey, here's our add-on."
[00:18:26] Now you are a more serious player, and you, you came in super differentiated. so this is such a great case study, such a great story. so let's put it together in a playbook. Let's say that, you know, I'm a PMM, I'm listening to this case study right now, and I'm like, "Hey, you know, I'm experiencing something similar, where I'm a PMM responsible for essentially an add-on to my company's marquee flagship product, but I think there's something bigger here.
[00:18:57] How do I try to follow in your footsteps and make a big impact for my company in the same way, or at least aspiring to, in the same way that you did?" what's the first step? Hmm.
[00:19:09] Wade: yeah, absolutely. Th- this is gonna be fun. So step one, I think for my case, and I think something that is, is super necessary and easy to do for, for a lot of PMMs out there is audit what your platform already owns. so this is, this is I think a move that most people don't necessarily, uh, do before really going to market or they miss like when they're launching a new product because they're, they're in a hurry, they wanna get something out, they need to, they gotta write the positioning, gotta get the messaging out there.
[00:19:39] But before you do anything else, you need to take stock of what your company already has at that point, like that a solution or a point solution provider cannot compete with. Uh, you really need to understand your moat as a platform or as a business. And so for us at Mailchimp, it was, uh, it was the contact list, it was, you know, [00:20:00] your, your audience list.
[00:20:01] It was the automation logic and the actual tools to be able to automate your marketing efforts. A- and then the customer relationship, right? It was all already built, already trusted by 12 million businesses. SMS didn't need to win on its own. It just needed to plug into what we already owned, and That's a completely different competitive conversation when it comes down to it.
[00:20:25] Elle: That's even a completely different, like, narrative exercise because initially what most PMMs would do, which is not wrong, it's what we've all been trained to do as PMMs, is, okay, go build the positioning. Okay, go build the narrative. And then later, which I guess is what MailChimp did as well, but later, okay, now what is, what's our platform story?
[00:20:50] Like, y- you know. But then that's-- But somebody else is owning that, and you still own your single lane product. But I love the way that you're explaining this, is to as part of that initial, positioning and, you know, work, is to audit what you own and how, figure out how this product fits into that. It never occurred to me to do that.
[00:21:12] Wade: the idea here is hindsight is 20/20, right? for me, right? And so I think that.
[00:21:21] is 100% something that I learned doing this and have to remember all the time, right? I think that we can-- P- PMMs can be in such a reactive spot that we, we not knowingly or not willingly forget to do X, Y, or Z, but we, we need to get something done.
[00:21:42] And I think being able to take a second, this doesn't take long to do. It's really like just understanding what you have already, and I think doing that, yeah, like, like you said, Mailchimp didn't do that first, and I think this is where what I learned and what was a great [00:22:00] opportunity for anyone listening is a base level thing to do.
[00:22:04] Step one, just take that audit and understand it, because if you do, it'll help your narrative in the future. It'll help you f- fold in your, your product's narrative into the other, you know, narratives that are going around or the umbrella narrative of your brand. but also allow you to ladder up to that, but then maybe shift it, right?
[00:22:24] Based on how you're seeing it and how you're going to market or how you're seeing your customers engage with this or how they're not engaging with it too, Right.
[00:22:32] I think that is also just a great opportunity to, uh, to really lean in and, and just get that base level understanding of how everything is and take that audit so that you can ultimately influence, uh, things going forward for sure.
[00:22:45] Elle: You know what else I really love about this step is that it's part of that context gathering That I think is so important, but it's the context that most PMMs-- I mean, I didn't, admittedly. I never did that. Most PMMs don't do that. I don't need to gather the context of my own company because I'm gonna have that as part of my messaging and positioning, but it's kind of like not really because your messaging and positioning becomes more about that single lane product that you own.
[00:23:12] and the like why us part is always like an afterthought on a slide. You know what I mean? It's like very rarely part of the like broader narrative. When I think of the context gathering, I think of more like what's happening in the market, what's happening with my customers. You know, I don't think about doing this audit.
[00:23:29] Wade: No, that's 100% correct. And, I think the thing that I'm seeing is, is a lot of companies these days and a lot of PMMs are very siloed in what they do and what they own.
[00:23:41] And so Honestly, doing this audit like this honestly just opens you up to do more of what your product marketing kind of like function can do internally too, right? You are, a visionary in that you are seeing that it's not just your product. Obviously, product marketers, we love our products, that's for sure.
[00:23:58] But like it's not just your [00:24:00] product in the whole story, and being able to audit it and take a, take a look at the whole picture is such an important thing to do, and honestly just sets you up for so much success going forward and Such
[00:24:11] like more internal kind of like trust-building opportunities too. I know that's like seems very random, but it, it is a
[00:24:18] great chance to like expound on your thinking that you as a product marketer are doing this, that, or the other to support not only your product, but how the company itself and the brand itself shows up. So
[00:24:29] Elle: step one is to do that audit. Um, what's step two?
[00:24:37] Wade: So it is to understand that a little bit, right? So have that mindset, um, going into this step two is, is, is the best thing here. I think step two?
[00:24:47] is then going into research with that open, uh, hypothesis, right? And the word open is doing a lot of work here explicitly, but like I didn't go in to my research with a deck to validate, or I didn't go in, uh, at the beginning with, "Here's some messaging.
[00:25:04] Can you tell me what resonates or what doesn't resonate?" Right? I went in genuinely not knowing what I'd find. So the question that I keep asking or that I-- the question that I kept asking wasn't, "Would you use SMS if we built it?" Or, "Would you use SMS more if we built these features?" It was, "Walk me through how you reach customers today when something is time-sensitive or when you have a deal," depending on the type of customer, right?
[00:25:30] When you have a, a, uh, um, a Mother's Day deal coming up, you know, what, how do you get your, your product in front of your customers, and how do you engage with them, right? And then I just shut up, I, I, I've learned that that insight that you can get from those opportunities or those types of questions actually like, that's when actual useful information comes out is when a customer is just describing their day, right?
[00:25:54] They're explicitly just talking about how they do their job. That's when you hear the [00:26:00] true frustrations. That's when you hear like, "I have to go to three different tools just to do one thing or just to look at all of my, my metrics," right? Like that's some key insight that we were able to take, but also for anything that you're working with from a product marketing perspective, that's when the real like tangible nuggets come out for sure.
[00:26:20] Elle: So this, like, open hypothesis that you're describing, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit. Um, is there a formula for, like, writing what that looks like or, like, or framing the question? and I guess, like, if you were to, remove the context of Mailchimp, how would you build that, like, open hypothesis of, like, walk me through...
[00:26:43] Is, is it kinda like a day in a life type of question for a customer?
[00:26:47] Wade: I think that like open, uh, and I, and I mean open really as a, as a I'm not asking really pointed questions about whatever it is I'm asking about. It is, like those answers to those questions, like for instance, again, for SMS, it's like an opportunity to dig in on where there are gaps, right?
[00:27:11] And I think that's, that's something you're not explicitly asking where a gap is in your day-to-day, because, if somebody asked me that, I would be like: "I have no idea. Like I, I really can't tell you, but here's my day." And then you as that product marketer, if you leave it open enough and have that mindset of, "I'm listening for gaps too," like that is where the good nuggets come out, is because you're not explicitly asking someone what the problem is or what can we do to help you do this, but it's, it is tell me where you have problems now or tell me about your day and we'll identify some problems together.
[00:27:46] It is really about just honestly creating a, a, a space for people to open up a little bit about whatever it is that they need to talk about, and that alone just gives people just like, "Oh, you know what? That actually [00:28:00] sucks on a day-to-day basis." And that's like key insight. So really trying to go in there and, and give people this, this platform or this stage to actually talk, um, versus just answering questions yes or no or whatever.
[00:28:13] It, it, that's really when it comes into play, and I think that's what I mean by open is, is allowing these people to just speak and talk normally versus I'm being interviewed by some tech company about how I use SMS, right?
[00:28:27] Elle: Yeah. I am gonna come back to something that we-- that came up in the first step, and that was still this context gathering that I'm seeing. And I wanna be very explicit and say context gathering, because what you're saying is not to give them context of, for example, "Here's my message and give me a reaction."
[00:28:47] You're not doing that. You're still gathering that information in step two, like gathering this context from them about their day-to-day so that you can go through and identify the gaps.
[00:28:59] Wade: Absolutely. I think that's such a key point and we'll get into this, I think, but coming up it's like those are the, the things that you as a product marketer, if you can get that context, if you can get that insight, that just preserves and expands your place at the table from a product, you know, development, product roadmap, product strategy perspective, and it's such good insight.
[00:29:23] I think that, like, gives you this, this signal, right? This... It's what, it's, it is what allows you to identify the signal that you can then take back to your team, for sure.
[00:29:32] Elle: I could not agree more with that. It gives-- It arms you with, I guess the proof or the evidence for, like, why you should have a seat at the table. In so many contexts, um, your stakeholders internally would, like, love you, love you for that, those insights. Okay. So step one is to do that internal audit of, like, what do we own?
[00:29:54] And then step two is to do this market research with customers with a [00:30:00] open hypothesis. What is step three?
[00:30:03] Wade: So I, I hinted at it, but step three?
[00:30:06] is to... I- is when you translate that insight that you've gathered, both the context and from your customers or from the market research, you, you frame that into, like, a roadmap argument, right? This is where I think that PMMs leave so much on the table. You do the research, you, you find the quote or you find the data, and then you put it on a slide and you call it, you know, data to support my positioning or, you know, you call it positioning period.
[00:30:35] I think that quote that I mentioned earlier, the, "I don't need more tools, but I need my tools to talk to each other," is so impactful and useful, not just for my positioning, but it's actually gold for a product team, right? So I brought it into roadmap discussions and roadmap conversations verbatim. So, like, I brought that, like, this is, this was this customer at this conversation X, X, Y, Z.
[00:30:59] the customer insights like that are hard to ignore, right? So the customer answered the question of what to build, right? And, and, and honestly, what our differentiator should be. So it was that, like, key insight and bringing it and framing it in the, in the, the format of a, a roadmap or a roadmap discussion or a product strategy discussion that really kind of like, all right, tip the scales into, all right, we...
[00:31:26] Sure, it's not an add-on, but maybe we should do, you know, make it a, uh, an all-in-one platform that is connected to everything else that Mailchimp does, right? So it's it's these kind of key insights that product marketing can really come to the table and actually, like- translate it for, for the product teams and product management teams to actually make a difference in what they're working towards, right?
[00:31:47] Elle: Yeah. It's just one extra step for a PMM. Like you do the market research, you show how it supports your narrative, your positioning, your messaging, but then you also, this is just one more step, you [00:32:00] also talk about the implications to the roadmap.
[00:32:02] I love that. Okay. And it's that, that is the real unlock here because that's how you start.
[00:32:08] Once it gets on the roadmap, then it starts to feed into the rest of company strategy and narrative building for the broader company, not just your single lane product. So I love that. Yeah. So what happens next after, you know, you get, I get it on the roadmap or, you know, I frame it as part of my roadmap discussion, what do I do after that?
[00:32:31] Wade: Absolutely. I think, so once you get it into a roadmap or once you get it into the strategy for a product, there will be a time where you are, your product may not meet the needs of everyone, right? But you can reframe your constraints as a product or as a product team as your advantage, right? So every product has something it doesn't do as well as, as any other, competitor or any other company out there.
[00:33:00] But I think the instinct is to hide that or work around it, right? But I think the better move is to own it and then flip it on its head, right? So we knew, as I mentioned earlier, that we were never going to out-Twilio Twilio or we're, or, or out-Attentive Attentive in the beginning, right? From this, from the, the start of, of launching SMS.
[00:33:20] It is great to set your sights on that and build towards it, right? Using that insight and that, context that you've gathered in the first few steps, right? But it's also not necessarily the fight that you should be picking to start. You should not be going up against these folks immediately.
[00:33:36] So instead of pretending that that gap didn't exist, right, we leaned into it. You want deep SMS infrastructure? Great. Here are the tool... There are tools that do that, right? You can, you can get that. But if you want your SMS that actually talks to your email campaigns, it talks to your contact list, your automations without duct taping three platforms together, um, then that's us.
[00:33:58] We are what you want, [00:34:00] right? Your constraint becomes your positioning when you're honest about the trade-offs that you're asking the customers to make. And what that also does is, you know, that allows you to also get very specific on the type of customer that you want, um, 'cause, you know, you can set your eyes on the Twilios and the, the, the, the enterprises that use that, but if you're not ready for it, you know, you can, you can get the other people that Twilio's leaving behind or you can get the people that Attentive's leaving behind, whatever it is You're just able to hit that note based on your constraints and based on your positioning and actually like leaning into it a bit more.
[00:34:36] Elle: Yeah. Okay. So after I do the roadmap discussion, then I come back to my, positioning and specifically my differentiators and like who I am and who I definitely am not. And I think this is, it's, it's second nature, I think even as humans to just wanna like totally ignore our weaknesses. But like all humans do this, not just PMMs.
[00:34:59] Like, but rather than avoiding those conversations, it's a little bit of a flex actually to be like, "Oh, this is, oh, yes, if you want that, we're not that."
[00:35:10] Like, let's make sure w- let's make sure we're a right fit. Yeah, exactly. So it, and you know what else it does? I mean, I, I would assume that it does, is in those sales conversations, you're building a little bit more trust with the prospect because they feel like you're being honest about who you are and who you're not.
[00:35:29] So I really like that approach. so is there more to the story of what, you know, kinda like what you do after you take all these steps?
[00:35:37] Wade: I'm, I'm glad you asked, and I'm glad you brought up sales too, because I think the, the last step, if you can, depending on whatever company you're at though, is to pressure test a lot of this with sales, right? So before anything goes external, right, even before you like put, put it on an ad or put it on the, the landing page or whatever, right?
[00:35:56] You, you should run it through your sales team, not for approval, right? Not [00:36:00] just, I mean, they would love that. I know that they would love that, but just for reality, like give yourself a reality check, right? So I'd, I'd give reps, uh, a new pitch and watch what happens, right? So I would build out a pitch for SMS and frankly a platform pitch because it's bigger than just SMS and see what happened, right?
[00:36:18] So could they use it naturally in a conversation or did they have to like stop and explain it first, right? I've always found that the best positioning actually sounds like something a smart salesperson would say in their own voice, right? Or on their own, and not something That comes out of a brand workshop or a, a positioning workshop, right?
[00:36:38] So sales will tell you faster than any focus group whether the message is actually working or worth your time to, to push out there for sure.
[00:36:46] Elle: That is one of the best tips I think I've ever heard in terms of-- I mean, I've definitely, uh, I've definitely heard other guests on my show and I myself, like, don't leave sales behind, of course. But the way that you described it of, like, see if a salesperson can come back to you and say it in their own words, and if they can, then that is an indication that it's something that is worth your time and probably going to be easier to enable, frankly.
[00:37:14] Wade: Absolutely. It is don't leave sales behind. Yeah.
[00:37:19] we all, we all know to do that, but I genuinely think if you can, even like even a Slack message on, on a, on a, a, a pretty consistent basis with, with like, "Hey team," you know, or if you have a couple of like main sellers that you know you work well with or you know are thinking about the product in a different way, if you can come to them and just share this stuff with them and get some input, one, it's golden for your actual positioning, it's golden for your messaging, but it's also, again, going back to like PMMs in general, it's golden for, relationship building, like huge.
[00:37:56] Just to, to have those, those one-on-one conversations or, you know, Slack [00:38:00] messages and DMs with folks is such a, such an easy thing to do that it's, it's almost silly that we don't do it more. Um, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that speak a lot with sales, but I'm sure there are a lot of people that don't.
[00:38:12] it's just about kind of getting in that habit, right? Getting in that routine of doing it and really just leaning in and, and, and honestly taking it, like taking it not with a grain of salt, but actually like, okay, this is, this is real. This is actually what people, what they hear on a day-to-day basis, what our customers are saying, right?
[00:38:31] They're the front line. It's such an important step and such a, like a fairly simple one too, and one that's just invaluable to getting out the door.
[00:38:38] Elle: I love that. I'd be stoked if, like, a salesperson was able to, like, take my narrative and repeat it back to me in, in their words, 'cause that tells me that, like, they got it, and
[00:38:47] Wade: Yeah.
[00:38:48] Elle: they're excited, uh, yeah, they're, and they're excited enough about it to, like, think about it and articulate it back, though.
[00:38:55] That's really cool. Okay, I know we're talking about sales, but I wanna switch back over to, uh, the product team for a second. So we talked a lot about, um, just throughout this conversation already, the idea that a product marketer's job isn't just to market the thing that you built, but to also shape what gets built in the future.
[00:39:16] We're not product managers, but we should be contributing, and that's, I think is that, that's very hard for PMMs to earn that trust with PMs. Yeah. And it can be a really big shift for a PMM to like, to make it to that point. So how do you think about that in practice?
[00:39:34] Wade: There's a few things here. One, I think Obviously, every product and product marketing org is different, and they have different ways of working. But I think for me, it, it, honestly, it took me a while to actually operate in that way versus just saying it, right? Or saying, "You should do this," right? Or, "I like to do this."
[00:39:55] It's a different story, right? I think the easy version of a product marketer's job, and it's not [00:40:00] easy, but the easy version of it is you get the brief, you understand what's launching, right? You write the messaging, and you launch the campaign, right? You work with teams to get it out the door. And over the last few years in SaaS, uh, specifically SaaS marketing or SaaS product marketing, you could probably get away with that because product-led growth is huge, and product-led orgs are massive out there.
[00:40:20] I, I think the version that actually moves, like, companies is when you're, you're in the room before the brief exists or before the product like, "Here's our PRD," right? When you're the person who shows up to a product review with customer evidence, like we talked about earlier, and says, "Here's what I heard, and here's what it means for what we should build," right?
[00:40:43] That is huge. So at Mailchimp, that SMS roadmap debate wasn't going to resolve itself. each, like, side had smart people with good arguments on what we should do. But, like, what broke that tie was, were customers who'd never been in any of those meetings, right? And so I was bringing that. My job was to bring their voices into that room.
[00:41:03] And once you figure that out and get on a... I think it, it does take a little bit of rigor to get that kind of like motion on the
[00:41:10] regular, right? But once You have to practice it.
[00:41:13] But once you figure that out, you as a product marketer stop being the support function, right?
[00:41:18] And actually start being a strategic one. And I think that is so crucial for a product marketer from a bringing value to your team, but also being able to, to bring value to your customers. You are that voice. You can not just support launches, but actually be the voice of the customer in those conversations and be a strategic one at that.
[00:41:39] So very, very important.
[00:41:40] Elle: Yeah, and you earn a lot of respect internally too. People start to be like, "Oh,
[00:41:45] Wade: Someone, I will say this right now. Somebody told me recently that they have worked with a lot of product marketers who, Have opinions and have data to back it, but also has worked with a lot of product marketers that just have [00:42:00] opinions. And I think, one, I was pretty taken aback by that, but at the same time, it is so true is, is if you as a product marketer, we can have opinions all day because we do know this stuff, but if we have these opinions and these kind of strategic initiatives or strategic guidance, right, that is backed by that data, it is so, so important to do that and is so valuable.
[00:42:24] And I think people see that and people recognize that. And to your point, it is-- it shows your value and gets you and keeps you in that seat at the table. It's so important.
[00:42:34] Elle: Yeah, absolutely. okay. So fast-forward to today, if, I... If you were to repeat this same playbook, how would AI play a role in all of this?
[00:42:47] Wade: That's a great question. I, I am-- It, it is so, I think, pertinent to the days that we are living in with regards to AI explicitly, but I think at a base level, I think AI helps you come to the table faster, right? So you, you-- the research that used to take weeks, the synthesis, the, the pattern recognition across different, you know, numbers or hundreds of customers in those conversations, you can compress that dramatically, right?
[00:43:13] So you're, you're showing up earlier in the process with actual evidence instead of waiting for the, the, uh, formal research sprint to wrap up or waiting on, on, you know, the interviews to stop, right? You're, you're, you're able to actually get all of that information and, and bring it to the table quicker.
[00:43:31] Uh, one level deeper though, I think is it's, and this is where it gets interesting, is that AI changes the model from like research as an event to research as a continuous signal. So you're not doing a listening tour once a quarter anymore. You're actually monitoring reviews, support tickets, sales calls, right?
[00:43:51] All in real time, and you can take that and surface those patterns before anyone's asked you to, right? So by the time there's like an internal [00:44:00] debate about what to build next, you already have the customer in the room, and you don't have to go and get them, Right.
[00:44:05] You, you can say, " been there," they've been there the whole time because you are able to understand what's happening all the time now with AI, and it's so...
[00:44:13] And it like it fast-forwards steps like one through three for you and, and makes it just so much easier to, to one, come into that conversation, be there, and, and it's a, an always-on type of thing. And I think that's what's the big opportunity here with AI is to, to enhance all of these steps and make them just much more, you know, consistent and always on.
[00:44:36] Elle: Yeah, you can still be the champion of the customer, but it's, it will allow you to do it in an always on fashion. So when those debates, yeah, when those debates come up, you're already ready to go. I love that. Okay, so y- you're at Zapier now. So what lessons from this playbook are you taking with you and applying to Zapier?
[00:44:59] Wade: That's a great question, and I think the biggest one is, is finding that integration story you already own before you compete explicitly on features, right? So I'm, I'm doing the same thing now at Zapier. I'm working on MCP among other products, and, and MCP is how AI agents connect to real tools and actually take real action, if you're not familiar.
[00:45:24] Uh, the real story here is that Zapier?
[00:45:27] already connects to 9,000 plus apps, right? And so AI agents need that to do anything truly meaningful, right? So we're not trying to be another AI platform, or we're not trying to take over, you know, be your place for Claude or right. We are, We are the infrastructure layer that actually makes any AI agent actually work and do good work. so
[00:45:48] leaning on what's made Zapier successful these past 15 years, and it's the same playbook It's, it's a different stage and a different category, right? So it's really trying to understand [00:46:00] what, what our mode is, and leaning into that explicitly, um, like I mentioned earlier with MailChimp and how we leaned into the, you know, the platform play.
[00:46:07] So it's
[00:46:08] it's very much a similar play here and can be used all over the place. Yeah, right
[00:46:18] now
[00:46:19] actually. I get... Got-- No, I'm just kidding. Yeah,
[00:46:20] Elle: That, that's awesome. Okay, last question for you on this topic, Wade. What piece of advice do you have for a product marketer who's in the midst of a major shift like this?
[00:46:31] Wade: Um, I want to say explicitly, don't let the launch be the first time that you touch the story, right? By the time the product is ready to ship, that narrative should already be set because you were in the room when the decisions were made with that customer evidence, with that data in hand, ready to go, right?
[00:46:51] Research is a weapon. You can use it early, you can use it to break ties or break, you know, debates, and let the customer answer the questions that nobody in the room can agree on, right? So that's how PMM, that's how PMM earns its seat, by being the person who truly understands the customer. I said it a few times, but I'll just say it one more time.
[00:47:11] It is you earn that seat and you keep it by being the person who truly understands the customer and brings that voice to the room.
[00:47:18] Elle: I could not agree w- more with that sentiment, and I feel like I've, I've witnessed it in my own career, so I know this to be true. Um, so yes, PMMs, if, uh, if you're not already doing it, um, this is a big unlock for your career. Okay, I love this case study so much. and now I'd like to switch gears and move over to our next segment of the show, the messaging critique.
[00:47:43] this is where we, as product marketing experts, get to analyze real world, marketing and messaging.
[00:47:49] Um, the fun part is, Wade, as the guest of my show, you get to pick the company that we critique today. Let me quickly outline some ground rules. First, you're gonna pick a company that either you are the customer [00:48:00] target or you're very familiar with the customer segment, because it's not really fair to analyze messaging for products that we don't really understand
[00:48:08] the audience for.
[00:48:09] Yeah, totally Um, and then you're gonna quickly tell us what is the messaging, who's it for, what are you loving about it, what do you wish the PMM would've considered differently, and then we'll do a quick brainstorm on how the PMM can take it to the next level. So without further ado, please reveal the company that we'll be looking at today.
[00:48:27] Wade: Absolutely. I, I was, I was thinking about this, and I, I really, and I say this because I've been using it so much. I I actually want to talk about Cursor. Have you heard of them?
[00:48:38] Elle: I have, and I'm so excited about it. This has not been done on the show yet. I think a lot of people... It's, it's one of those up-and-coming, products. So just quickly tell us what it is.
[00:48:50] Wade: Of course. It's a, it's an AI native code editor, right? So VS Code is, is Microsoft's, right? But they've rebuilt it from the ground up with AI at the core. So their headline is.
[00:49:02] literally like the best way to code with AI, right? They've got agents that can build entire features end-to-end, auto-complete that predicts multi-line edits.
[00:49:10] And they're deeply embedded in how like serious engineering teams work, right? So they've surpassed, I think, 2 billion in annual revenue and hold like roughly 25% of the market share among this like generative AI software buyers. So that's like, that's not a small bet. That's pretty
[00:49:27] Elle: I w- That's pretty im- that's pretty impressive
[00:49:30] actually. Yeah, and so for anyone who wants to follow along, I'm going to their website homepage. It's just C-U-R-S-O-R.com. okay. So what do you think is working really well with their messaging?
[00:49:43] Wade: So the thing that I, I love is that they genuinely, Mm, like made a genuinely bold product bet and their messaging reflects it, right? So when everyone else is just adding AI to their editor, right? A- [00:50:00] Cursor asked w- what if we rebuilt the editor around AI, right? And their messaging is actually consistent with that.
[00:50:06] So the best way to code with AI, it's clean, it's, it's, it's declarative, it takes a stand. It's, it's not, you're not hedging anything, right? It's a rare, it's rare in a category where every competitor is trying to sound like it's the safe choice, right? Or the, the, the, uh, the secure choice, right? Which is important, but like the confidence here is earned and it comes through in their messaging.
[00:50:29] Elle: Mm, I love that. Okay, so then what would you say or what would you wish the PMM would've considered differently?
[00:50:36] Wade: I, I think this is not necessarily a, a product marketing thing, but something that they should think about going forward too, is like it's, it's a nuanced critique, but like I think their messaging is almost entirely developer inward or like developer-focused and that, that's understandable. That's what the product is.
[00:50:55] But like everything about that Cursor does is for the engineer, right? Speed, auto-complete, agents, model flexibility, right? But there's missing narrative about what Cursor enables for a business, Right.
[00:51:07] So who's making the procurement decision at a 500-person company, right? It's not usually the developer, it's not usually those people, but it's, it's, it's the engineering leader or the CTO or the IT officer, right?
[00:51:19] It's, it is, they need to justify that spend, right? So right now, Cursor doesn't give that person much to work with, right? The ROI story, the, the org-wide transformation angle, it's pretty thin, and I think that's a gap I would close if they're looking to, like, expand and do more. Obviously, I think they have an opportunity or they have already kind of bridged that gap a little bit just by going through developers.
[00:51:44] But I think as they want to continue to learn to grow and how they have to grow as a, as a startup, you have to go up here at that level to get, get top-down almost. So I think there's a lot of opportunity to close that gap.
[00:51:56] Elle: Yeah, so many companies miss that, and it's, it's, [00:52:00] it's not that it's hard to do, it's just it takes some time and some steps and,
[00:52:05] Wade: It comes with the, Like, I think it comes with the, the stage of the company, right? And I think it, it's, it is definitely just a fun opportunity to like, I kinda wanna be in the room when they're like, "This is a new, like, persona or a new... Like, this is somebody we need to go after.
[00:52:22] How can we do it?" I think it would be very, very interesting to see, for sure.
[00:52:25] Elle: Uh, so on that note, like w- how would you like to see them take it to the next level? I mean, obviously they, they can do a little more with the buy team and, you know, looking at building out campaigns there. But like what... Is that what that looks like?
[00:52:38] Wade: I think that looks, it looks something like that. Or, or even like?
[00:52:42] I'd build out like a teams messaging layer, right? So that sits above that individual developer story. So something like Cursor for engineering orgs, right? So, uh, that's very simple, but it's just, it, as a, as a positioning statement, it puts y- you in the right mindset of, "Oh, this isn't just for me as an engineer," or, "This isn't just for, for me as an engineer, but this is for my entire org, or my entire engineering org can use this," right?
[00:53:08] You have proof points around the development speed, code quality, um, onboarding new engineers faster, which I think is such an important thing these days. And this idea around shared brain that we're seeing a lot with AI is so, so important, and I think they should lean into that. Like, getting onboarded here is simple as, it's, it's as easy as a prompt, right?
[00:53:28] They have the evidence, right? They're running hundreds of automations per hour, have enterprise customers already. that raw material to, like, make that really, really good, like, compelling messaging is there. It just needs to be packaged and, like, for that buyer. And I think it's not just, not just the end user, but for that, that, that buyer at that level that we're talking about. I think that's the move that takes them from a developer tool to engineering infrastructure, right? It's a completely different, like, conversation, but it's super, super important and could be fun.
[00:53:59] Elle: I love [00:54:00] that. I would not be surprised if they came and sent you a DM after hearing this episode.
[00:54:05] Grab some guidance and mentorship. Okay. Well, shout out to any Cursor PMMs out there. You guys are doing a great job. Um, we can't say, we can't wait to see how your story develops. All right. So, uh, Wade, one thing I like to make space for on this podcast is a moment of gratitude, um, 'cause in product marketing, we never get anywhere alone.
[00:54:26] We're always learning from each other, building from one another. So I just wanna say a genuine thank you for coming on and doing all the prep and sharing your case study and all of your guidance. It's an incredibly inspiring and helpful to the product marketing community. So thank you. That's awesome.
[00:54:43] Wade: It's my pleasure. I, I-- This was one, uh, um, amazing kind of conversation and, and frankly, very fun. I love when we get to geek, geek out a little bit about product marketing. It's so much fun. So
[00:54:56] Elle: Isn't it? I know, the time goes by so fast and you're like, "Oh, we only have an hour for this? What?"
[00:55:01] Wade: I know. Like, let's get another one. Let's get another hour
[00:55:04] Elle: Yeah, totally. Okay, and then last thing is I would love to give some shout-outs to some PMMs who have really contributed to your career growth and made you the amazing PMM that you are today. So let's hear it.
[00:55:15] Who are those PMMs?
[00:55:16] Wade: I have... I've, uh, was thinking about this, and I have... There's so many people, um, not even like PMMs?
[00:55:23] but I think if I'm gonna think about this from a PMM perspective, I've had so many great managers over my time, my, my many years in, in this industry. you know, Jamal Miller, who was a, a, a, a major kind of contributor to my growth at Mailchimp.
[00:55:40] He's now at Calendly. He's doing fantastic. He was just such a, a level head and a, a smart tactical product marketer, helped me, uh, tremendously. And then, uh, one more is, um, it's actually, his name is John Holbrook, and he was my direct, like, manager at Mailchimp for a long [00:56:00] time. And he, he just made me understand, like, the human element of, of the work that we do, the job that we do, um, the organization that we live and work in.
[00:56:15] And he is just a truly good human being that is one of the smartest men that I know, and I
[00:56:21] am super thankful that. I got to experience his, his guidance, his leadership, and, uh, he still... We, we, we talk all the time. Like, he is one of my... I think he-- I, I-- see him as a friend and a mentor. so
[00:56:33] Elle: feels so good to look back on our careers and think like, "Wow, I would not be here today if it weren't for this person or that
[00:56:43] person."
[00:56:43] Wade: it's true. It's very
[00:56:45] Elle: aw, love having mentors like that. Okay, and this is my last question for you. Where else can we acce- access your expertise? Is it best to just find you on LinkedIn?
[00:56:53] Wade: LinkedIn?
[00:56:54] is probably the best for sure. Um, I'm pretty active on there. I have a website too, but you can see that on my LinkedIn too. So yeah, come, come find me, come find me on LinkedIn. I'd
[00:57:04] Elle: We will check it out.
[00:57:05] Wade: you. No question about it
[00:57:07] Elle: Awesome. Thank you so much, Wade. And hey, PMM listeners, if you like this episode, please share it with a PMM friend, and I would be so grateful if you would leave us a review. It helps tremendously with our reach. Thank you so much for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
