Leverage Your Community Like an Expedia PMM
Hey PMMs, tell me if you’ve been feeling this too. It feels like every brand is trying to build a community right now. And honestly, it makes sense. With so much AI-generated content flooding every channel, people are craving something different. Good old-fashioned human connection. When customers feel like they belong, not just transact, something shifts. They not only use your product, but they trust you, advocate for you, and start to see your brand as a place, not just a vendor.
But that raises the real question. What actually creates that feeling? Why do some communities make people feel seen, heard, and genuinely connected, while others feel like empty Slack groups or glorified mailing lists? And why are smaller, more intentional communities suddenly outperforming massive audiences? That is exactly what we unpack in this episode with Cara Gravett.
Cara is a product marketing leader with deep experience building at the intersection of product, partners, and revenue. She spent years at Expedia in senior product marketing roles, helping shape growth across complex B2B ecosystems, and today advises companies on how to elevate product marketing from a tactical function into a real strategic driver of business impact. She is also the creator of Between Launches, a community where product marketers meet monthly to learn from one another, share real-world experiences, and sharpen their craft together. Which makes her especially well qualified for this conversation.
Community vs Audience
We started by unpacking the difference between an audience and a community, because the two get blurred constantly. Cara’s view was simple and useful. An audience consumes. A community belongs. That sense of belonging comes from shared purpose, shared identity, and a reason to keep showing up beyond passive consumption.
She used niche fitness communities as a good example. People do not just join because they like the content. They join because they see themselves in the group. That is the shift. If your strategy is built around reach alone, you will get attention. If it is built around shared purpose, you have a chance to build something much stickier.
Inside Expedia’s TAP Community
Cara took us behind the scenes of Expedia’s TAP initiative, which focused on travel advisors, many of whom were independent business owners. This was not a generic “let’s build community” exercise. It was tied to a very real user group with very real needs, and that is exactly why it worked.
With a global network of around 200,000 advisors, the challenge was not just scale, but relevance. Cara and the team built around niche interests, created targeted webinars, and introduced a learning management system that helped advisors build confidence and capability. The result was a peer-driven environment where people were learning from each other, not just from the brand. That is when community starts doing real work for the business.
A Practical Playbook for Building Community
Cara’s advice for anyone trying to build a community was refreshingly grounded. Start with intent. What exactly are you trying to drive? Product adoption? Education? Retention? Advocacy? If you cannot answer that clearly, you are not building a community yet. You are just gathering people and hoping something happens.
She also emphasized the value of going niche early. Do not start broad and vague. Start with a specific group, a specific need, and a specific reason for them to engage. That focus gives you something you can actually test and improve.
And one of the strongest points she made was that communities should be treated like products. You pilot them. You test them. You iterate based on what people actually do, not what you hoped they would do. That mindset alone makes the whole thing more useful and a lot less fluffy.
Where AI Fits In
We also touched on AI, because of course we did. Cara sees AI as a useful support tool for community work, especially when it comes to summarising feedback, spotting themes in conversations, and helping teams move faster.
But she was also clear on the limit. AI can help you process the signals, but it cannot replace the human side of community. The reason people stay in communities is not because the summaries are efficient. It is because they feel seen, understood, and connected to something bigger than themselves.
Messaging Critique: Maven Clinic
Cara chose digital healthcare platform Maven Clinic for our messaging critique segment. She pointed out that Maven does a strong job of combining emotional storytelling with clear business outcomes, which is not easy to pull off.
At the same time, she saw an opportunity to tighten the messaging further around the core decision-maker, especially HR leaders. It is a useful reminder that even when messaging is strong, there is often more power in narrowing the focus. The clearer you are about who the message is for, the easier it is for the right person to see themselves in it.
What I liked most about Cara’s approach is that it strips away the vague, over-romanticized version of community building and replaces it with something far more useful: clear intent, real user value, tight focus and ongoing iteration. That is the work.
If you’re thinking about building a community around your product, this episode is a good reminder that the goal isn’t just engagement for engagement’s sake, but creating a space that helps people succeed. In doing so, you strengthen the relationship between them and your brand.
LINKS:
Messaging Critique: https://www.mavenclinic.com/
Connect with Cara:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-gravett/
Connect with Elle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle3izabeth/
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[00:00:42] Elle: Hey, pmms, tell me if you've been feeling this right now. It feels like every brand is trying to build a community. Am I right? My take on this is that in a world that's overflowing with AI generated content and that perfectly polished noise, people are starting to crave something different. Good old fashioned human connection.
[00:01:05] Surprise, surprise, because when customers feel like they belong, not just transacting, they don't just use your product, they start to trust you, they advocate for you. Your brand becomes a place, not just a vendor. So what actually creates that feeling? Why do some communities make people feel seen, heard, and deeply connected while others feel like empty slack groups or glorified mailing lists?
[00:01:31] And why are smaller, more intentional communities suddenly outperforming massive audiences? Today we are unpacking one of the most powerful growth strategies in modern marketing community. What it really is, why it matters now more than ever, and how the right kind of community can transform a brand from something people buy into something or some place they belong to.
[00:01:57] And to help us unpack this, I am [00:02:00] thrilled to welcome Cara Gravett to the show. Cara is a dynamic product marketing leader who helped shape the world's largest travel platform to drive growth through complex B2B ecosystems. She spent many years at Expedia as a senior leader in product marketing, working at the intersection of product partners and revenue. Today she advises, companies on how to elevate product marketing from tactical function to a true strategic driver of business impact. She's also the creator of between launches a community of product marketers who meet monthly to learn from one another, share real world experiences, and grow their craft together.
[00:02:43] Which makes her especially well qualified for, uh, today's topic on community. And on top of that, Cara has been recognized by the Product Marketing Alliance as a top product marketing consultant, and she's known for bringing both deep customer empathy and strong business ownership to everything she touches.
[00:03:02] Welcome to the show, Cara.
[00:03:05] Cara: Thank you. Thank you so much. Hello everybody. I'm a long time listener, first time guest, so very, very excited to be here.
[00:03:12] Elle: Yay. Uh, likewise. Okay, wanna jump right in because this topic is so timely and so interesting. So, before we get into the case study though, I wanna start with maybe a little something a little more foundational. So the word community gets thrown around a lot in marketing.
[00:03:31] So how do you define community when it comes to customers or partners? Like what makes something a true community versus just an audience?
[00:03:44] Cara: I think the way we define community is shifting. it used to be that we think big audiences, you know, the bigger, the better, especially on social, you know, how can we get this bigger audience? But now we're seeing a shift towards much more relevance. Members wanna [00:04:00] feel like they belong. I think you mentioned in your intro, they really wanna feel it.
[00:04:03] So think about the fitness industry. Um, you know, I joined a gym 15, 20 years ago, and it was a gym that had everything I would go and work out. I would leave. There didn't really feel like there was a sense of community. Fast forward to today, there's so many more options. I personally attend bar three, which is a mix of.
[00:04:24] Pilates, ballet and Yoga. and it specializes, in women and women of a similar age and demographic of myself. So it makes it really feel personal. It's a very personal experience. I actually get a chance to connect with the, the teachers. I connect with the people, and I've actually made some really good friends.
[00:04:45] So I think that's the difference. The biggest difference is it's not necessarily just messaging out the difference in community is now is like having a shared purpose, for them to interact with each other.
[00:04:58] Elle: I love that shared purpose. Plus you look around and you're like, these people. Are just like me. You know, not May, maybe not necessarily like look like you quote unquote, because obviously many communities can be online, so you may not actually see them. But I'm thinking even to like Reddit communities, right?
[00:05:16] I have no idea what, who those people are, what they look like, other than just some, you know, silly handle that they created. But again, back to your point of like shared purpose. and, and making it personal. and I think the, the belonging piece is especially important here, right? So now let's ground that definition, in taking us back to your time at Expedia.
[00:05:38] So how did this recording when we were. You know, doing our prep call for this, we talked a lot about your time at Expedia and Expedia's, travel Agent affiliate program or tap. So explain to us now how community shows up wrapped around in that context. Um, and tell us a little bit more about who are [00:06:00] these advisors and you know, what was going on.
[00:06:03] Cara: Yeah, absolutely. So TAP is Expedia's B2B platform designed for travel advisors. Um, travel advisors are also known as travel agents, if you didn't know that. Um, they're mostly independent business owners, so there are some consortiums and the like. Um, but they're mostly, individual business owners.
[00:06:21] They're booking travel for a client. We had about 200,000 of them globally. So we had reach, but they weren't necessarily using our platform exclusively. Um, they had multiple tools on their desktop and the needs of the day. And the client really, that's what drove them to use a particular tool over another.
[00:06:41] And so community showed up really differently here. We weren't just supporting the end user, we were supporting the business owners in helping to make that decision. You know, where to book. How to learn and really who to trust.
[00:06:53] Elle: Got it. Okay. So the trust factor, and again, I'm thinking back to like shared purpose, right? So with that context now. digging a little deeper into the case study, I guess, walk us through the time when you were trying to increase engagement now, and I think it, what you were saying before in our prep call was like around like, share of wallet, right?
[00:07:15] Like when you were trying to build some of that share of wallet, from travel advisors, uh, leveraging this, the tap I'm calling it. Um, what was happening and how did you decide what to do?
[00:07:27] Cara: Yeah. Great question. So we were in a place, as I mentioned before, that uh, travel advisors had many tools to be able to select form. Um, we had the reach, but we didn't necessarily have, uh, we weren't necessarily their go-to platform. And so the goal was to increase share of wallet. Essentially what that means is the usage of the platform, and in turn revenue, and then also to close some knowledge gaps.
[00:07:54] We actually had a lot of different tools and features that I don't think the travel advisors were [00:08:00] aware of at the time. So we were really, those were kind of our two goals is share wallet and knowledge gaps. We also had the unique challenge that they were so globally dispersed, right? So we couldn't necessarily just, do something small.
[00:08:13] We wanted to do something that was personal, but also something that was scalable so we could educate them and connect them. So we decided to build some smaller niche communities. Um, we kind of looked at our audience. Um, we did some surveys really to find out, you know, what their niches were and organized some smaller groups based on their shared challenges and then interests.
[00:08:35] And then we layered on a few different channels to bring them together and then provide content. So we did targeted webinars. We created more relevant content based on the topics that they wanted to discuss. We brought in. Our sales team. So they were much more connected to, not only understanding, you know, what they wanted, but why, you know, why did they want these particular things.
[00:09:01] Um, we did content in terms of sharing out advisor trends and insights, really kind of what are the booking trends so we could help them with their business, um, really understanding how to grow that. We did create a formal LMS for more structured learning, um, which was very, well, uh, received
[00:09:20] Elle: And real quick, just for listeners slash myself who may not know, what is LMS?
[00:09:26] Cara: Oh, good call. It is a learning management system, so we
[00:09:30] create, think of it as like educational, an educational tool where you can put up, you know, it's kind of a knowledge bank of
[00:09:37] learning, but
[00:09:38] Elle: Okay. Makes perfect sense. Especially as you were talking about the like content that you were creating and providing. Got it. Okay.
[00:09:44] Cara: yes, good call. yes. And so that was well received because it really opened up their eyes to. Services and products that we had that they just weren't really aware of. Not that the product was very complex, but you know, they're, they're in their, their day to day. [00:10:00] We also brought some of the members into some of our internal events.
[00:10:03] We had some big Expedia partnership events, which we had never brought the travel advisors to, um, before. And so we started to bring them into those as well. And the combination of those is really where things started to click, because not only were. Interested in what we had to say. It became much more peer driven.
[00:10:24] advisors were helping each other. They were sharing best practices and tips, which really that's what made the community valuable. And from there we saw an increase in overall satisfaction, a better product understanding. Um, we did see a increase of share of wallet. And I think the other benefit that we.
[00:10:45] Hadn't necessarily had a goal of is we also better underst store our product gaps were, which also in turn to help the share of wallet 'cause we could fill those gaps, easier by, by being surfaced, um, much quicker.
[00:11:00] Elle: What I am seeing as just as you're describing the, um, both the different strategies and tax tactics that you used, is that there's an organic evolution here that started with you. Being super customer centric, trying to fill the knowledge gaps, creating the content. And you had this like, I guess like a feedback loop of, you know, like you mentioned like trends and insights that were coming from the people that you were speaking to.
[00:11:29] And then you're feeding it back. And then the more that you brought your customers in. And then I, I guess it led to, I think you said like event events or, you know. Customer conferences or some, something is, is the gist that I got. And then you, you actually got to see them talk to each other. It seems like it just snowballed from there in terms of, ah, there's something even bigger that we can unlock here and tap into by making this conversation not just a, an a and B conversation, but an A, [00:12:00] b, and C conversation.
[00:12:02] which gets really interesting. Yeah.
[00:12:03] Cara: Yeah, I was gonna say it definitely moved from. A, we're just going to give you content to, uh, you are going to help us create this content. And then that moved into, you're gonna help us create this content, but then you're also gonna share it with the other people in your network.
[00:12:21] And it just really became this, forum and not really a forum, but you know, a community of, of learnings and it, and, and it really helped us, To get the knowledge out there, on why and how they should use the product.
[00:12:34] Elle: Yeah, and that's tapping into something that I think is so authentically human like innately, humans have a bit of altruistic tendencies. We all do to some, some more than others. We want to be helpful to other people. We also like to be seen as experts. We like to, you know, it gives us a feeling of satisfaction, fulfillment, when it feels like not only are we helping someone else, but we're using our expertise to do so.
[00:13:05] So it's, I It feels like you've tapped into that with this community.
[00:13:09] Cara: yeah, and I think you want to hear from like-minded people. You know, I think there's so many companies that have capitalized on this, right? You think of things like Angie's List or you even think of things like TripAdvisor and the the, you know, I think reviews is a big. Piece of this as well.
[00:13:24] That's kind of that user generated content. But when you can get it from people that you trust, you know, and those are the people that are usually in your, I don't wanna say like-minded, but usually in that area where you know, you know they're an expert.
[00:13:41] You wanna be able to talk to that.
[00:13:43] Elle: Exactly. Exactly. I think that's why that works so well. in very similar to what you created at Expedia with this tap group, right? These like strategic travel advisors, is that you found these individuals who were those [00:14:00] experts who were trusted, and they became a voice of the product basically,
[00:14:05] Cara: Yeah.
[00:14:05] Elle: which is so And I mean, they became very good advocates. It was great.
[00:14:09] And then they got something out of it too, right? Like it's, it's all part of like, um, advancing their own expertise and leadership as well. okay, so now what I wanna do is take your case study. And turn it into a playbook. So let's say that, I'm a product marketer with a, obviously with a product, but um, with a goal of trying to engage my customers and create community around them, and you're my coach for this.
[00:14:42] You're gonna coach me through this exercise. So what is step one? What's the first thing that I should do? Um, assume I'm starting from nothing, but I do have customers. Who are, you know, love the product.
[00:14:54] Cara: I think the first step is what is your intention, right? What are you trying to solve? What is the business goal that it is tied to? Really start with that because a community that's built around education or a product adoption or advocacy are gonna all look a little bit different,
[00:15:13] right?
[00:15:13] Elle: okay. Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:15:15] Cara: And so you wanna figure out like, what's that?
[00:15:17] What's that core goal that you wanna think about? Um, for example, when I was working at Zen Planner, which is one of the clients that I've consulted with, they're a fitness and wellness company. We created a community of fitness owners that use our marketing, uh, features that we have. We invited them in to talk about growth and marketing strategy and we did some, you know, feature plugs and, and really helped them kind of overcome any challenges with a product.
[00:15:45] But the thing that worked really well there is owners started learning from other owners in terms of what they're doing in terms of marketing and strategy. And so, you know, an owner in Minneapolis could learn from an [00:16:00] owner in Los Angeles and they could say, here's what I'm doing to drive more signups.
[00:16:03] And it felt. Coming, coming back to the same tap example, it's, there's that trust there. It felt like you're getting it from experts. And, and so that worked really well. And I think that's where sometimes teams can go wrong, is they start with the community. Let's build a community and not necessarily with what are our goals for the community.
[00:16:25] So that's, that's my first step. Get
[00:16:27] Elle: they jump. They jump right in start building, which, you know, gotta give them props for eagerness.
[00:16:34] Cara: Yes. Yeah. And you know, we do that in the marketing world, right? We wanna move fast. And so it's not, not a matter of moving fast, it's just a matter of, moving fast in the right direction.
[00:16:43] Elle: Yeah. Yeah. And being clear on what we're doing this for, because as you're building the community and building out whether it's incentives or you know, the methods by which you want the community to engage with one another, all of that can be, can reinforce whatever your goal is. Um, so that makes a lot of sense.
[00:17:03] Okay, so assume I am building the community. I've got my primary goal, what I'm trying to do with this community, what comes next?
[00:17:12] Cara: Your. Who do you want to be in your community? Like who exactly is it for? What problem are they trying to solve? The more specific here you can get, is the better. Um, I like to say, you know, niche drives relevance and relevance drives engagement. So when people feel like, Hey, this is for me, there's so much more willing to show up and participate, and so.
[00:17:40] Start small and then, and build from there.
[00:17:43] Elle: Okay, so that might be a little counterintuitive. But to actually start really niche, you could actually see a bit more traction with that. Is that what you're kind of saying from
[00:17:54] Cara: I think it, I, yes. I think that it gets into, [00:18:00] when you start small, you have a better understanding of what the community needs, and then you can build it out from, from there.
[00:18:08] Elle: Mm mm Okay. So instead of all customers, it's like, no, no, no, no. This very specific segment of customers. Maybe start with, with that first and then slowly start to build and expand from there.
[00:18:21] Cara: Yeah, there's a few different studies on this. Um, I think there's an HBR study and some others that are, that really talk more about. These niche markets. I think if you're just trying to get marketing messages out, you know, we're just trying to get things out. You know, a broader community is fine. I still think as a product marketer, you need to be able to speak to your ICP, in a way that's not too broad.
[00:18:42] You know, they need to know that you understand them. But I think when you're building a community that's more about some other type of business goal, really starting small is, the way to go.
[00:18:54] Elle: Got it. Okay. So as soon as you figure out who it's for, how do you decide where the community should live?
[00:19:03] Cara: It's a good question. Um, you definitely need to think of the right channel, and this comes down to the behavior of your audience. you wanna understand where they're already spending their time, where are they already engaging? It could be webinars, forums, messaging apps, even in person. You know, we did that at
[00:19:21] Expedia, as I mentioned.
[00:19:22] but the goal is to reduce friction. You wanna meet them where they already are, not try to get them to go elsewhere.
[00:19:29] Elle: Okay. And then quick follow up to that. I hope this doesn't go off in too big of a tangent, but when you're doing some of that research of figuring out where they already are, hopefully you have it already, but what if you don't have that already? What's a good way to run some experiments? Or where can I do the research to figure out?
[00:19:51] Where they engage. Is it? okay. I don't wanna feed you. You tell me.
[00:19:56] Cara: No, no, no. Yeah, I, I mean, I think it, I think it varies. Um, and that's [00:20:00] why you, you gotta think of the customer behavior. Uh, you know, it could be something as easy, um, as, you know, doing some desk research and really finding out like, you know, the. Travel advisors, for example, you know, they attend these particular events and when they're at those events, we wanna pull them into some private events.
[00:20:19] It could be, you know, you start there, it could be selecting an audience and then interview, or, sorry, not necessarily interviewing, but surveying them. Like where do you engage? Right? And then you can get some of that, um, information up front and then, you know, you kind of iterate on that.
[00:20:37] Elle: Yeah. You could test a little bit. Sure. Yeah.
[00:20:40] Okay, so assume that I found my place, I did my research and I found my place where my community is going to live. So what do I do next?
[00:20:49] Cara: I like to treat the community like a product. So Pilot, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but I'll just do a bit bit of recap. Um, you know, pilot with a smaller group first so you can really understand what the learnings are. You can test different formats, different cadences, and. And really find out what drives engagement, and then you can iterate from there.
[00:21:08] I think the key thing is, is like, what are they actually doing versus having in your head what you expected them to do. 'cause sometimes those two things are not always the same.
[00:21:18] Elle: Yes. Oh my gosh. And you made me think of something else too, just as you were talking. So at the very beginning you told me that the first, the first step should be to make sure that I have an intention and a goal with what I'm trying to do with the community.
[00:21:29] Cara: Yeah.
[00:21:30] Elle: I think, and maybe this comes out in in the pilot or maybe it comes out in some of the research that that you do, but you also have to make sure that your goal with the community isn't like an indirect conflict with what your community members' goals are in joining the community.
[00:21:48] Because it has to somewhat, I'm guessing this is a, a hypothesis, but I'm guessing it has to somewhat align. Like if I'm thinking back to your Expedia example, the community members were trying to learn, and your [00:22:00] goal was to educate, right? So not only were you educating them, but then they were educating each other because their goal was to learn.
[00:22:07] So I'm thinking in like a similar situation like. We should probably uncover some of that,
[00:22:15] Cara: Yeah,
[00:22:15] Elle: sure that you know, their goals are, it resonates, right?
[00:22:19] Cara: You're so right. I mean, those two things have to be aligned. What I will say though is at Expedia, our goal in a nutshell, it's really to expand share of wallet
[00:22:28] Yeah, I was gonna say that wasn't necessarily the goal for advisors. I mean, the goal for advisors, I mean, they want more revenue from their clients and they wanna use a tool that is the most efficient.
[00:22:39] But getting, sending us more share of wallet is definitely not theirs. So that's why we felt that one way to get, you know, this is based on data and kind of some voice of, uh, customer stuff. Um, but we felt that a better way to get that share of wallet was based on education and
[00:22:58] sharing. And so that's how we, that's how we tied our business goal to what the goals of the audience are.
[00:23:06] 'cause they have to be the same. I mean, you can have some kind of secondary pieces, but If you're talking about something over here and they don't care about it at all, that's, that's not gonna work.
[00:23:17] Elle: Yes, yes. So there's like the, there's the business goal of why we're doing this, and then there's like the motivations behind why should I join? That's kind of a level, A level deeper than. Everyone's honestly, genuinely in the most, with, with the most integrity possible. Everyone's out here just trying to make a buck, right?
[00:23:37] So, but a cl a level deeper than that, um, when we're igniting our passions and using our talents and skills, like what is that motivating factor that in more intrinsic motivating factor, It sounds like you were able to kind of uncover and, and tap into that. So now moving on to, you know, I'm ready to launch my community, but how [00:24:00] do I measure to make sure that it's actually working?
[00:24:03] Cara: It's a good question. So you wanna look at participation. Um, are people showing up? Are they engaging?
[00:24:09] Elle: I.
[00:24:09] Cara: Not only participation, because sometimes people show up and you know, maybe they're not really engaging. So I also think about the quality of the engagement. You know, what are the conversations like, what are the themes that are coming out of those?
[00:24:22] For example, when I first launched between launches, which I think sounds so funny, launch between launches, but I ran a survey, to the audience to find out more about what they cared about because I had thi, I had ideas. I had been kind of thinking about this idea for a long time when I was in-house because, as a leader, you know, oftentimes you get it to a senior leader position in a, in an organization and you're maybe one of two.
[00:24:46] And so it's really nice to have an audience that you can go bounce ideas off of. and so I had some ideas in my head in terms of. Topics I thought would be really interesting, but I wanted to make sure my audience would think those are interesting too. So I started out with, you know, a couple of things that they could just select and then I, uh, you know, opened it up and then I got additional information.
[00:25:06] AI rated really high on that list, as you know, it's, it's the buzz word in the industry at the moment. and so, that allowed me to. Understand the topics so I can select speakers moving forward. you know, topics the audience really wanted to dig into. I mean, at the end of the day when you're thinking community, if members feel that the topics are relevant, that's when they'll keep coming back.
[00:25:30] Elle: Got it. Yes. It's almost a, and I think you mentioned this at the beginning, right? You talked about treating community like it's a product and. You're in looking at the, what you're suggesting of how to measure and then maintain engagement. You're doing a lot of that, like product adoption and product usage,
[00:25:49] Cara: Yeah.
[00:25:50] Elle: know, you know, measurements.
[00:25:53] Uh, so that makes a lot of sense. okay. So I also love that in [00:26:00] your story, the community became. Self-reinforcing once these advisors started actually helping each other out. So talk a little more, a little bit more about that and why it's important.
[00:26:13] Cara: I think that's when you really know that it's working or not. peer-to-peer support for me is, is the unlock. Um, one thing, it, it reduces the dependency on the organization to always, you know, create every interaction. I think we talked about this earlier is it builds a lot more trust and cred credibility because it's really, you know, the experts and the members that you see as peers.
[00:26:38] Um, getting that kind of flywheel of conversation going. And so, um, so yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest unlocks is when you can get them talking with each other and sharing.
[00:26:48] Elle: I love it. And that'll just continue to give you even more ideas of how to further engage and, you know, keep the adoption growing. Um, you mentioned, you mentioned AI earlier that you had fielded, um, you did a little bit of research, surveyed the perspective members, and AI was a hot topic. So on the subject of ai, 'cause we can't have.
[00:27:12] A podcast without talking about AI these days. So where does AI fit into a community driven strategy?
[00:27:21] Cara: I think AI can play, a really helpful role in terms of enabling, being an enabler. I think this is the way many pmms are using AI in general, but it's great for things like summarizing feedback or identifying patterns across conversations, or even helping with the communication and content. But the core thing to community is human connection.
[00:27:46] So we just can't lose that. You know, we don't wanna allow, we don't want AI to replace that. That's what really makes it the company or company
[00:27:54] community valuable. another benefit of AI and communities is the [00:28:00] insights that come out of the community. They can become a content strategy on their own, shaping how, um, the company shows up in LLMs and making.
[00:28:10] It easier for your prospects to find you. That's, that's a key piece that, I mean, think the more that we can get out, the more testimonials, the more case studies, the more information we can get outta those groups. We can, you know, feed them into the LLMs and make us much more discoverable.
[00:28:26] Elle: You just mentioned what I think is going to be like a bombshell of eagerness. Now every company's gonna want a community with like wit what we can show up in LLMs. What did she say? Like,
[00:28:40] Cara: I am sure there's another session on how to do that, but, but, but that's, that's how I've been thinking about it.
[00:28:46] Elle: Yeah. No, and I think you're absolutely right because in this world, like everything sounds, it's a little like too polished. Everything sounds a little too perfect. And I think, you know, the suss meter is like, who is that? Can I trust this? Like, did you actually do this? What is this? So it's hard to. Trust what's in front of you, with all this AI stuff.
[00:29:08] And I, I love that you, re-articulated that human connection is the whole point of all of this. So while AI can kind of help you get going, maybe do some standard you. A few sections of the launch activities, or as you pointed out, do some of the analysis of, you know, customer engagement. Do not have AI engage.
[00:29:33] Don't do it. Don't do it.
[00:29:35] Cara: Yeah. In fact, even in in between launches, I, I don't record the calls and I do that for a purpose. 'cause I want people to feel comfortable sharing examples of what's going on, you know?
[00:29:46] And sometimes I think, oh, I really wish I did at least transcribe it, so then I could like automatically like pull up the themes.
[00:29:55] But I'm here with my pen and paper writing down notes the old traditional way,
[00:29:59] Elle: [00:30:00] Yeah. Good old fashioned. Yes. I love it. Okay, so when I launch my community, I guess, what should that launch actually look like? I know you mentioned pilots, which is very helpful. but where do they fit into the picture when it comes to like a broader launch?
[00:30:17] Cara: Yeah, I think it's a good question. Um, I think this is sometimes where things can go awry. You know, some teams try to go too big too fast, so I think of a pilot. As a launch, maybe it's not as big as a tier one launch, you know, if you think of your product marketing tiering, but it's really like, you know, get it out there.
[00:30:36] Start small, focused, you know, we talked about, you know, around that specific problem or kind of goal really to give them a clear reason to show up. Then treat it like a product. So test and learn. See what drives engagement, you know, where, um, it's best to show up. And then when you start seeing people kind of showing up consistently and contributing, that's when you expand.
[00:31:00] And the nice thing about that is oftentimes, you get, your early adopters, you know, oftentimes those people that first join that group can become your champions. And then they can help you, help you grow.
[00:31:13] Elle: Yeah. My big takeaway in what you just said is that to, and this goes back to like tracking the metrics and success, is to track for consistency
[00:31:27] in usage. When you're seeing a good consistency, that's kind of an indication that you're ready for the next level of scale. so I really love that.
[00:31:38] Okay. Last topic or last question for you on this topic, Cara. what's one piece of advice that you have for a product marketer who is on the path to creating a community around their product?
[00:31:52] Cara: Start with the problem. You know, make sure that you're focused on what that problem is. You know, we mentioned earlier, sometimes the company and the audience can [00:32:00] have kind of different problems, like just make sure that those are. You can have secondary business goals out of that, but make sure that those are the same, so you can build that, um, relevance and, and, and don't think you have to go too big, too fast.
[00:32:15] I think, you know, all audience, I mean, it really depends on your audience and what your goals are. Um, you know, if you, you have 200,000 travel advisors, you know, you might be able to go bigger than if you're starting something like my, my between launches community, right? Like our goal is to have these.
[00:32:30] Conversations, but, you know, test and learn and, and go big when you've got the right, engagement.
[00:32:37] Elle: Yeah. Okay. I love that. Start with the problem. okay. Well this was so insightful and like I said, so timely for everything that I'm seeing and I think. Product marketers are kind of itching to get at more connection with their customers, especially given how everybody's bombarded with ai. So there are so much to learn here from you, Kara, in your case study about community and just you've just repeated, you know, success with that.
[00:33:08] So thank you again for sharing with us.
[00:33:10] Cara: Thank you.
[00:33:11] Elle: All right. Okay, so now it's time for the next segment of the show. So this is the messaging critique. This is where, uh, we get to be product marketing experts and analyze real world marketing. And the fun part is, as my guest Cara, you get to choose the company that, that we look at.
[00:33:29] So I'm gonna start with some ground rules. You wanna try to pick a company that is one that you either are the target audience or you know the target audience really well. It wouldn't be fair for me to analyze the messaging of like a food and beverage company because I have no idea. Like I'm not, I know, I know nothing about that.
[00:33:48] Um, so once you reveal the company, then you are gonna tell me. A little bit about what's popping out at you in terms of what's working really well with the messaging, and then what you wish the [00:34:00] PMM would've considered differently. And then we'll iterate and brainstorm a bit on how the PMM could take it to the next level, whether that's a creative campaign content, or just make their messaging super punchy.
[00:34:13] Cara: Sounds good.
[00:34:14] Elle: All right, so reveal. What is the company will we will look at today?
[00:34:19] Cara: So I have selected Maven Clinic. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but I'm very passionate about what they do. Um, I wouldn't say I am their direct audience, but kind of their downstream audience.
[00:34:33] Elle: Okay, I'm gonna Google them really quickly. So it's Maven, Maven Clinic. Is it just, uh, maven clinic.com.
[00:34:41] Cara: Yes.
[00:34:43] Elle: Is this so on their website, at least how they present themselves to the world looks like evidence-based women's and family healthcare. Is that right?
[00:34:51] Cara: Yes.
[00:34:52] Elle: Okay. Okay. Okay, great. So for those of you who wanna follow along, um, do you wanna tell us a little bit more about like what they do?
[00:34:59] Obviously they're a healthcare clinic of some kind.
[00:35:02] Cara: Yeah. There are digital health clear, ugh. Can't say healthcare today. Uh, they're a digital healthcare platform that are focused on women's and family health. Um, it's offered through an employer benefit. And so I would say the direct ICP is is more tied to kind of the HR benefits leader, um, versus the employee, but they still do market to the employees as well.
[00:35:25] Elle: interesting. Okay. So, um, target customer then is more of the HR benefits of, you know, good size, medium to enterprise sized employer. Um, so what is popping out at you about the messaging? What's working really well?
[00:35:44] Cara: I think they do a really good job of balancing emotional storytelling with business impact. I think, you know, there's a lot of women's topics around, um, fertility, um, around, um, uh. [00:36:00] Menopause or perimenopause or anxiety. And it's, it's, it's family health and women's health.
[00:36:08] Uh, but they do a really good job of that storytelling in terms of how they do improve a lot of clinical, um, challenges, um, as I would say. And, and then they also talk about the business impact to the hr, uh, leader.
[00:36:21] Elle: Got it. Okay. So I'm on their website right now and I'm just trying to like, dig through just to get a, a stronger sense of like what that actually looks like. as I'm scrolling through their website, is there something like big that kind of points to that, you know, storytelling that they do?
[00:36:40] I mean, I've seen a lot of, like women and family like, and I, I think that repetition, you know, kind of works really well for. Who they're trying to make this for. and then they have kind of this like tile of, um, it looks like topics that I think you mentioned. Is that, is that kind of what you were getting at with how they're
[00:37:00] the different topics and how they kind of like build on the storytelling?
[00:37:04] Cara: Yeah, I think it's more in, um, kind of the why Maven. Um, and if you look at, you know, I probably wouldn't be on their, uh, their website and looked at a few different things, but, um,
[00:37:14] you know, if you look at some of the programs that they have, it really goes into the fertility and family, family building. Um, it it, and so it does speak a little bit more to the challenges that these audiences face.
[00:37:29] Um. I think that's where this comes together more so
[00:37:33] Elle: Got it. Yes. Okay. So they are, while they are speaking to kind of like the hr, representative, they're still able to be very convincing around. Why this is so meaningful to their employers? Or sorry, employees.
[00:37:52] Um, 'cause I'm even reading just on the like, fertility and family building page. It says, guiding members on [00:38:00] sh on the shortest, most affordable path to a healthy baby while maxi maximizing your benefits dollars.
[00:38:07] That's amazing.
[00:38:08] Cara: Yeah. And so they speak to, they, they speak to both of those, which I think is um, uh, really, really great 'cause they're speaking to what the employee wants to hear, you know, in terms of. What challenges or health, um, options they might be struggling with. Um, but then they also kind of speak to that, um, ICP of the hr.
[00:38:30] Elle: Totally, and those are two very different audiences. To speak to and there and, and this topic, well, some of these topics anyway, some of them are very sensitive. So being able to do that in a way that isn't a turnoff, um, is definitely a win. Um,
[00:38:51] so yeah, I'm definitely liking the storytelling here. Okay. And tell me something you wish the PMM would've considered differently.
[00:39:00] Cara: This is gonna sound a little contradictory to what I just said, but I think that, you know, as I mentioned, I think they do a good job of balancing the emotional storytelling with the business outcomes. I think where they can get. Um, where they can uplevel and enhance is, is tailoring it more to a direct ICP.
[00:39:20] So to, to your point, you know, you mentioned them on the page, they're talking to both the employee and they're talking to the HR leader, and I think that's good, but it feels like a lot, at one time. And it, I think it dilutes the message if you're coming in just as
[00:39:35] an
[00:39:35] Elle: Ah,
[00:39:36] Cara: Um, and so.
[00:39:37] Elle: probably the bulk of what they're getting.
[00:39:39] Cara: Yes. Yeah. And so I think that, I mean, they do have a tab for employers where I think they do this a bit better, but I feel like if that is your true ICP, um, then that should be front and center on your homepage on kind of your solutions page.
[00:39:55] And so I think that's where they can do better. I mean, they have a lot of the content already. It's just maybe [00:40:00] structuring it in a way that is, is a bit different.
[00:40:03] Elle: Yeah, well it sounds like maybe they need to, uh, rebuild their message house so that, so that that top level messaging is more up for the ICP. Um, and then they can sprinkle in, they can start to introduce the more individual employee messaging down at the lower tiers of the,
[00:40:25] Cara: Yeah. Or have it, you know, different tabs. I mean, they do have the employer tabs, so I think they're, they're going for it. But I think that, and I don't, I've never worked for this company. Um, you know, I don't, I don't have that add that detail, but I, I feel like. From an external perspective, their core ICP is the HR leader, so I would have everything geared toward that and then have a small inlay or tab or whatnot for the the employees.
[00:40:53] So kind of
[00:40:53] Elle: Yeah.
[00:40:54] Cara: script around a little bit?
[00:40:55] Elle: Exactly. Rather than straddling the two, just pick one and go for
[00:40:58] it. Okay. Um, what would you do to take this to the next level?
[00:41:04] Cara: Exactly that. I would kind of change that structure a little bit, really focus on the ICPI, um, uh, going through the website. You know, this might not be the technical health, um, terms, but you know, you have business outcomes and then you have, uh, what I call kind of clinical outcomes. You know, the clinical outcomes are like, you know, we increase fertility by X percent, or those sorts of things.
[00:41:28] How do you ensure you're talking to your ICP about the item that they care about most? Right. And some of those, maybe some clinical ties into retention. you know, I can think of when I was at Expedia, we had a women in the workplace goal and you know, so I could see things around fertility, like kind of being a secondary signal.
[00:41:52] Um, but I think it's really getting clear in terms of.
[00:41:56] When I, another story when I was at, um, so I was in [00:42:00] sales before I went into product marketing. And one of the reasons I went into product marketing is when I was leading a sales team, they would take what marketing gave them and it might have six things on it, right? And, um, the great sales people would take that six things that marketing had, and they would narrow it down to three to talk to their clients about.
[00:42:22] The three things that they knew their clients cared about. And I would say kind of the mediocre kind of salespeople would just go and kind of read off the slide. And when I was in those meetings, I would just see people's eyes glaze over, right? And so sometimes I think when it comes to messaging, whether it be in a deck or whether it be on a website, less is more, right?
[00:42:44] Let's get
[00:42:45] really, really clear on what they care about.
[00:42:47] And I think that they could be a little clearer here.
[00:42:51] Elle: Oh yes. And that's such a great example and I think you're so right. Like if I'm, you know, just revisiting their website, it does, it does get a bit like repetitive and there is, there is kind of a lot here, like they've got, and I'm trying not to critique on like design, 'cause I'm not a designer. What do I know about what website design?
[00:43:09] Nothing. So, but you're right, it is kind of like. It's a lot for, it would be a lot for me, even if this was all like product marketing. Like if this was a product marketing company and it was the same like volume of content, it's like too much. It's putting too much ownership or um, onus on the customer to have to figure out.
[00:43:34] What am I, you know, what do you do? What do you offer, um, et cetera. So yeah, I think that's, uh, a really strong call out. While still they, um, they've got the, they've got the foundation. Maybe it's just rearranging a bit and focusing in on the ICP. So shout out Maven Clinic. I think, you know, you guys are on the right track and excited to [00:44:00] see how it iterates.
[00:44:02] Cara: I'm actually just excited to see how this company go, you know, how, how they perform going forward. 'cause it's something that I'm very passionate about, so I
[00:44:10] just
[00:44:10] kind
[00:44:10] Elle: Yeah.
[00:44:10] Cara: tabs on so
[00:44:11] Elle: Aw, I love that we're rooting for you. Maven Clinic. All right, so Cara, one last thing I like to make space for on the podcast is a moment of gratitude because in product marketing, none of us get here alone. We're always learning from each other, building in of each other. I guess we're community of our own.
[00:44:31] So before we wrap up, I just wanna say a genuine thank you for all the work that goes into putting this episode together, um, and all the time that you've spent, and your generosity and sharing your expertise, um, is so helpful. So thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to have you on the show.
[00:44:49] Cara: Well, thanks for
[00:44:50] Elle: And. Yes, of course. Um, and then likewise, I'd like to turn it around to you and give you a chance to give a shout out to a few pmms who have shaped your career and brought you to, you know, the successful point in your career that you're at today.
[00:45:06] Cara: I love this question. Honestly, one of the things I love about the product marketing community is how open everyone is. Um, people are always willing to share. I've reached out to different people about my consulting work. When I was thinking of kicking that off, I've gotten, you know, ideas from people just really kind of understand, you know, other people's career progression.
[00:45:28] And I feel like everyone has this mentality of like, we're in it all. We're all in it together, and like, let's help each other. And so. That's a big part of why I started between launches a very small but mighty group. Um, and I feel like I learned something from that group every month. Um, and we're even starting to get a little, little bit of traction in our online, um, our LinkedIn group.
[00:45:53] so instead of just calling out one or two people, I'd like to really call out the collective PMM community that had the [00:46:00] biggest
[00:46:00] impact on me. Is that a cop out? Do you feel?
[00:46:03] Elle: No, not at all. Not at all. I love it. Yeah.
[00:46:08] Cara: I mean, there's so many great ones out there, way too many, uh, to list for sure.
[00:46:13] Elle: I know I a hundred percent and I just shout out to listeners out there to check out the between launches community to get a sense of what Cara is talking about here and, and get a piece of some of that goodness that you're getting, that you know, the sounding board and a place to go and get feedback, share ideas.
[00:46:37] Um. I think that's, you know, just, it's such a value add. Um, and it's the whole, you know, it truly is part of the definition that you laid out. It's just at the start of the episode for what a community is. All right, so my last question for you is, where else can we access your expertise? Is it best to just find you on LinkedIn?
[00:46:55] Cara: That's probably the best. I, I try to put some, you know, kind of thought leadership content out there. Um, the between launches community is there. Feel free to, you know, connect, dm. Um, I'm usually pretty quick at following up. Um, but yeah, I'd love to love to get to know you.
[00:47:12] Elle: Awesome. Again, thank you so much, Cara and hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, please share it with a PMM friend and I would be so grateful if you would leave a review or hit subscribe. It helps tremendously with our reach. Thank you so much for coming with us on this adventure today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.
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